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| PSAD, and phone immediately at next signal 01/12/2010 at 00:51 #2063 | |
Danny252
1461 posts |
It's fairly common for a TCF or lamp failure to mean that a train needs to phone in twice, both times needing to be authorised past a signal at danger. However, it can be quite annoying waiting for a train to phone in the second time/forgetting to phone him via F2 - therefore, would it be possible to add a "Pass Signal At Danger, and phone at next signal" option to the phone? I'd expect a signalman to give a similar sort of message to a driver in a real situation like this, to help keep things flowing.
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| PSAD, and phone immediately at next signal 01/12/2010 at 00:51 #12725 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
It's fairly common for a TCF or lamp failure to mean that a train needs to phone in twice, both times needing to be authorised past a signal at danger. However, it can be quite annoying waiting for a train to phone in the second time/forgetting to phone him via F2 - therefore, would it be possible to add a "Pass Signal At Danger, and phone at next signal" option to the phone? I'd expect a signalman to give a similar sort of message to a driver in a real situation like this, to help keep things flowing.
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| PSAD, and phone immediately at next signal 01/12/2010 at 03:43 #12726 | |
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AndyG
1835 posts |
Also, in real life, wouldn't a driver 'phone in immediately on stopping at an unlit signal, as it's clear that there is a failure?
I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Log in to reply |
| PSAD, and phone immediately at next signal 01/12/2010 at 16:04 #12730 | |
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TRC666
135 posts |
I would imagine that they would phone in at the signal, as I guess that an unlit signal would be treated as a red, and an unlit repeater would most likely be treated as a caution.
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| PSAD, and phone immediately at next signal 01/12/2010 at 17:52 #12734 | |
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ralphjwchadkirk
275 posts |
An unlit signal is always treated as showing it's most restrictive aspect.
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| PSAD, and phone immediately at next signal 01/12/2010 at 19:13 #12736 | |
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UKTrainMan
1803 posts |
Whilst I do somewhat like this idea proposed by Danny252, I'd wonder what the rule books specifically say about it. Without Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for. Log in to reply |
| PSAD, and phone immediately at next signal 01/12/2010 at 19:53 #12737 | |
postal
5190 posts |
As ever, a little basic research supplies the answer to most questions. 1) Andy G is, of course, correct about a driver reporting an unlit signal. Item 3.1 of this section of the on-line Rule Book states that "[the driver] must tell the signaller immediately, stopping the train specially if necessary, if [he/she] becomes aware of a signalling failure or irregularity on any line". 2) The next section of the on-line Rule Book gives the following instructions to drivers as Item 1.1. "1.1 Reminding the signaller When your train is detained on a running line, without a movement authority (MA), you must contact the signaller by means of the GSM-R radio. You must only use a telephone or other means of communication if it is not possible to use GSM-R. You must contact the signaller as soon as possible. However, you can wait for up to two minutes before contacting the signaller if you can see an obvious reason for not having an MA such as: • the section ahead being occupied by a train • a conflicting movement being made at a junction. You must tell the signaller: • your train reporting number • if you are detained at a block marker, the identity of the block marker. If you are not detained at a block marker, you must reach a clear understanding with the signaller of the location of your train and the line on which it is standing. If you have to use a means of communication other than GSM-R, you must first make sure you are speaking with the correct signaller." If anyone wants to do any further research, the index to the Rule Book including the links to the various modules is online here. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| PSAD, and phone immediately at next signal 02/12/2010 at 07:46 #12741 | |
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Late Turn
696 posts |
UKTrainMan said:Whilst I do somewhat like this idea proposed by Danny252, I'd wonder what the rule books specifically say about it. Without Times quoted in the Rule Book for the Driver contacting the Signalman are a maximum (remembering various accidents over the years where a Signalman forgot about the presence of a train and the Driver failed to carry out the old Rule 55 within the prescribed time) - there's nothing to stop the Driver coming on the phone immediately if it's clear that the Signalman needs to speak to him (or the Signalman has advised him as such), even if the Rules in that particular situation don't require it. Equally, there's nothing to stop the Signalman instructing the Driver to make contact immediately upon coming to a stand at the next signal. Incidentally, Postal's quote from the Rule Book comes from one of the new ERTMS modules, hence the mention of using GSM-R in preference to any telephones (no SPTs on the Cambrian, I'm guessing). The principle remains broadly similar though. Log in to reply |
| PSAD, and phone immediately at next signal 02/12/2010 at 08:25 #12742 | |
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clive
2738 posts |
I have just checked the source code. At a red signal, the driver will call in after 2 minutes (though the sim author can change this on a per-signal basis). At a dark signal she will call in after 30 seconds (it takes time to get out of the cab, you know :-). In both cases there's some random variation, and both cases are timed from stopping at the signal.
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| PSAD, and phone immediately at next signal 02/12/2010 at 09:54 #12744 | |
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postal
5190 posts |
@Late Turn Well, after the smart-arse comment, I nearly got the basic research right! JG “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| PSAD, and phone immediately at next signal 07/12/2010 at 17:25 #12812 | |
headshot119
4869 posts |
Not sure about on the national network but on the underground the signaler can authorize a train to pass multiple signals at danger. eg: "Drive you are authorized to pass signal 12, 13 and 14 at danger, please carry out your procedure at each signal and then obey all further signals." "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply |
| PSAD, and phone immediately at next signal 08/12/2010 at 07:57 #12815 | |
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Haraubrad
103 posts |
As I remember it, you can only authorise a driver to pass one signal at a time, telling him to obey all other signals. If it's a failure which involves a big area, temporary block working is introduced in which a driver is given a ticket by a hand signalman (at the first signal which can be controlled to danger), authorising him to ignore the aspect in x number of signals and to stop at x signal and give up the ticket to another hand signalman.
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| PSAD, and phone immediately at next signal 08/12/2010 at 10:26 #12818 | |
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kbarber
1712 posts |
Haraubrad said:As I remember it, you can only authorise a driver to pass one signal at a time, telling him to obey all other signals. If it's a failure which involves a big area, temporary block working is introduced in which a driver is given a ticket by a hand signalman (at the first signal which can be controlled to danger), authorising him to ignore the aspect in x number of signals and to stop at x signal and give up the ticket to another hand signalman. I've certainly known that done during engineering works, advised out in the WON. In that case not strictly temp block working as control remained in the hands of the signalman who would authorise passage of each train to the handsignalman. Not sure how practicable it would be to get it set up during a failure (unless it's obvious there's going to be problems for a long time) as it would take some time to find qualified handsignalmen, get them to necessary locations (I think I'm right in saying temporary block working can't be introduced until all handsignalmen are in position aren't I?) and ensure necessary communications/instructions are all fully in place/understood. As I understand it, that sort of working would take place using direct communication between the ends of the temp block section, so a fully-qualified signalman (or supervisor) would be required at each location instructing handsignalmen accordingly and the controlling box wouldn't have any direct control over anything that happened. I really shouldn't go giving the programmers ideas but it has to be said: I wonder if/how this might be included in Simsig? (I'll get my coat.) Log in to reply |
| PSAD, and phone immediately at next signal 08/12/2010 at 13:25 #12822 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
Haraubrad said:As I remember it, you can only authorise a driver to pass one signal at a time, telling him to obey all other signals.That's the only way I've ever heard/been taught to do it. I'd certainly be loathe to authorise drivers past multiple signals in most cases as the risk of a misunderstanding increases ("Did the Bobby tell me to proceed as far as to Signal 113 or 131?"  - plus should something go awry ahead whilst the train has been told to pass the whole lot of signals, it's slightly harder to contact the driver!Though, as kbarber says, I think engineering possessions are able to do things such as passing multiple signals (as supposedly the trains will be proceeding on line of sight most of the time). Log in to reply |
| PSAD, and phone immediately at next signal 09/12/2010 at 10:37 #12840 | |
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kbarber
1712 posts |
Danny252 said:
No, I wasn't thinking of engineering train movements within possessions. I distinctly recall WON entries (going back to the early '80s now) of the form that signalling work would be taking place at X and working would be by special [something-or-other]. It laid down that trains would be stopped at specified signals and, when all was right to proceed, the driver would be given a ticket authorising him to proceed. He was then to proceed, ignoring any aspect displayed at various signals (numbers specified) and was required to obey the aspect displayed in signal Y (there would be several signals Y as invariably several lines were affected). After passing signal Y he should destroy the ticket and obey all subsequent signals in the usual way. Arrangements within possessions are laid down in the Rule Book and my knowledge of that is far too out-of-date for me to dare a comment. Log in to reply |
| PSAD, and phone immediately at next signal 10/12/2010 at 09:32 #12854 | |
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Haraubrad
103 posts |
kbarber is correct in what he says except for the fact that when the driver arrives at signal y, ( which must be a signal that can be controlled to danger), he must hand the ticket, (which will also have his train reporting number on it), to the handsignalman at that signal. The handsignalman will then inform the signaller that the train has arrived and that he has the ticket for train xxxx. The signaller will then clear signal y, and when the train has passed signal y complete with taillamp the handsignalman will inform the signaller that the train has cleared the temporary block section complete. The signaller can then permit the handsignaller at the start of the temporay block section to issue a ticket to train zzzz and instruct the driver to proceed according to the instrucions on the ticket
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| PSAD, and phone immediately at next signal 10/12/2010 at 10:29 #12855 | |
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kbarber
1712 posts |
So it looks as if we're talking about different things; the engineering special working quite definitely didn't require a stop at the signal marking the end of the special working. I've just recalled additionally that the number plate of that signal would be illuminated during hours of darkness. (Thought: I wonder if that was changed for the temporary block working system Aubrey cites following an incident of some sort?)
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| PSAD, and phone immediately at next signal 17/12/2010 at 13:48 #12927 | |
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GB
64 posts |
I suspect you are talking about the same thing (certainly sounds like it), just the current method has superceeded previous methods with a few alterations.
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| PSAD, and phone immediately at next signal 17/12/2010 at 13:54 #12928 | |
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GB
64 posts |
Within possessions, all the signaller cares about is authorsing the train to pass signals protecting the possession (in and out) and CCTV level crossings that are not under local control.
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