Clicking train on map highlights it on Train List

You are here: Home > Forum > Wishlist > Features wish list > Clicking train on map highlights it on Train List

Page 1 of 1

Clicking train on map highlights it on Train List 21/11/2011 at 11:45 #23402
maxand
Avatar
1637 posts 		In an earlier thread in the Features wish list section of the forum I suggested adding the train's status as seen on the Train List (F2) to the Show Timetable window for that train, creating a "one-stop shop" when a quick view is required.

This was not well received as the view was that this would detract from authenticity as well as confusing the two functions, and I agree both points are valid.

So as an alternative I'd like to propose that when the Train List window is displayed, left-clicking a train would highlight its line in the Train List window (as well as refreshing the Show Timetable window). The advantages of doing it this way are:

- It should not take much extra programming to achieve since it makes use of existing functionality.
- The modification only needs to be done once to the core software and should immediately work in all sims.
- It would greatly reduce the need to scroll down the Train List, which is a necessity when playing SimSig on a smaller screen.
- Beginners would really appreciate being able to do this.
- We acknowledge the Train List is just an ancillary aid to playing the sim so adding this feature would not detract from authenticity. If you don't need it you can always turn the Train List off.

What do you all think?
Last edited: 21/11/2011 at 11:45 by maxand
Log in to reply
Re: Clicking train on map highlights it on Train List 21/11/2011 at 12:05 #23409
jc92
Avatar
3629 posts 		50/50 response from me, it certainly might be handy on larger sims with plenty of trains in sim and therefore a packed train list, speeding things up for the host.

however the train list is sorted into alphabetical/numerical order so it isnt too much of a chore to find a specific train, perhaps instead a search bar on top of the trainlist instead?

personally i have to say im not too fussed about having to scroll down the F2 menu to find a train
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
Log in to reply
Re: Clicking train on map highlights it on Train List 21/11/2011 at 12:26 #23416
maxand
Avatar
1637 posts 		Thanks jc92. When the Train List is reduced to, say, 5 lines to squeeze it into a smaller screen, scrolling can be a pain. Besides which, highlighting the clicked train as a blue bar in the Train List window would be an immediate benefit.

Again, this is mainly an aid for beginners - and beginners can be anyone starting a new, unfamiliar sim. A backlog quickly builds up, there are suddenly far too many trains on the map, so the Train List can blow out. If you don't know what signal your train is waiting at, you at least want to know what district of the map it's in.

The more vertically reduced the Train List is, the harder it is to scroll accurately.

I believe this would be a most worthwhile addition to SimSig.
Last edited: 21/11/2011 at 12:27 by maxand
Log in to reply
Re: Clicking train on map highlights it on Train List 21/11/2011 at 13:46 #23429
clive
Avatar
2738 posts 		" said:
So as an alternative I'd like to propose that when the Train List window is displayed, left-clicking a train would highlight its line in the Train List window (as well as refreshing the Show Timetable window).
Assuming you mean left-clicking a train description rather than left-clicking the red track circuit, it's certainly worth looking into.
Log in to reply
The following user said thank you: alan_s
Re: Clicking train on map highlights it on Train List 21/11/2011 at 16:12 #23435
UKTrainMan
Avatar
1803 posts 		" said:
50/50 response from me

and me too.

" said:
perhaps instead a search bar on top of the trainlist instead?

Sounds good!

" said:
however the train list is sorted into alphabetical/numerical order so it isnt too much of a chore to find a specific train

" said:
personally i have to say im not too fussed about having to scroll down the F2 menu to find a train

Ditto.
Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for.
Last edited: 21/11/2011 at 16:14 by UKTrainMan
Log in to reply
Re: Clicking train on map highlights it on Train List 21/11/2011 at 22:43 #23463
maxand
Avatar
1637 posts 		Clive wrote
Quote:
Assuming you mean left-clicking a train description rather than left-clicking the red track circuit
Yes, sorry I didn't make that clear. Clicking the train's berth.

jc92 wrote
Quote:
perhaps instead a search bar on top of the trainlist instead?
That implies
- pressing F2 or clicking the Train List (if open) to give it focus;
- typing at least 4 digits (the headcode);
- clicking OK or pressing Enter to commence the search (unless incremental search is used);
- clicking the main panel or doing something else to return focus to it.

In my suggestion, only one shift-click on the berth is required. It is a moot design point whether focus should automatically return to the main panel at the end of this action.

At the risk of inviting scorn by comparing SimSig with its simpler counterpart Train Dispatcher, the latter has the well-designed feature where simply hovering over any train displays its current speed, next stop, ETA and one or two other parameters in a status bar conveniently located just beneath the main menu, near the top of the screen rather than at the bottom. :)

This raises the alternative prospect of a display separate from the train list, such as a status bar or popup messagebox. However, using the existing Train List seems the most economic solution.
Log in to reply
Re: Clicking train on map highlights it on Train List 21/11/2011 at 23:24 #23464
Danny252
Avatar
1461 posts 		Perhaps we should buy you some sort of non-mouse-based input system, given that you seem to have a severe aversion to clicking more than once to get the information you want?

Anyway, left clicking on the TD opens the timetable (which now gives you an extra click to close it and one more to focus the F2 screen, so no luck there) and right clicking gives a menu, so there's not many options left.
Log in to reply
The following user said thank you: Signalhunter
Re: Clicking train on map highlights it on Train List 22/11/2011 at 00:55 #23467
maxand
Avatar
1637 posts 		Danny252 said

Quote:
Perhaps we should buy you some sort of non-mouse-based input system, given that you seem to have a severe aversion to clicking more than once to get the information you want?
Actually you've just raised a very interesting point. In the early days of computing, all input was done by keyboard, which left the hands resting comfortably on the keyboard or wrist rest with minimal movement except for the fingers. Then graphic interfaces came along and Doug Engelbart invented the mouse to deal with it. Now, using a mouse is excellent for navigating a Graphical User Interface (GUI), but unfortunately it's not really possible to type with it. Conversely, typing is fine for entering headcodes, etc., but the keyboard comes a poor second to using a mouse to navigate a display.

In SimSig and other software which rely on both keyboard entry and mouse navigation, such as graphic databases, there is nothing worse than constantly switching between keyboard and mouse to get your work done. Even notebook touch pads IMO lack the tactile feel of a mouse. So the answer isn't an easy one. If you are doing repetitious text entry for long periods of time (such as entering headcodes), every superfluous click or keypress becomes annoying after a while. Reducing the number of key presses and mouse clicks to the bare minimum immediately increases the appeal of any software.

Refining an interface can be a time-consuming, thankless task. We were given two hands, so why not make full use of them? Look no further than PC games and how much care has gone into them. It's often better to distribute repetitious work between two hands, with a mouse in one and the other resting on the keyboard. That's why manoevres such as Shift-click can be so efficient.
Log in to reply
Re: Clicking train on map highlights it on Train List 22/11/2011 at 01:27 #23468
MikeW
Avatar
65 posts 		Dear Maxand

I've held off commenting over the past few days, but I would point out that the large body of SimSig users has found the current input method perfectly satisfactory for its purpose for a considerable period of time. It seems a little unreasonable to request root and branch changes after just a few days of experience with this already very well tested and much appreciated software.

My experience of thirty years of working with and developing public-facing and staff-facing user interfaces highlighted above all the dangers of change for change's sake and the value of the hackneyed old saying 'If it ain't broke ...'

Just my twopennyworth, which I hope will be accepted in the spirit in which it is intended.

Mike
Last edited: 22/11/2011 at 01:27 by MikeW
Reason: Typo
Log in to reply
The following users said thank you: Signalhunter, jc92, AndyG, UKTrainMan, Meld, delticfan, andyb0607, BarryM
Re: Clicking train on map highlights it on Train List 22/11/2011 at 01:39 #23469
UKTrainMan
Avatar
1803 posts 		" said:
but unfortunately it's not really possible to type with it

On-screen keyboard....

" said:
Conversely, typing is fine for entering headcodes, etc., but the keyboard comes a poor second to using a mouse to navigate a display.

I often vary my navigation around a simulation, depending on what I want to or need to do. Sometimes I'll use the scroll wheel, other times it'll be the arrow keys on the keyboard, and sometimes I'll even use the scroll bar. I've got no problems with doing this, each has their merits for use.

" said:
In SimSig and other software which rely on both keyboard entry and mouse navigation, such as graphic databases, there is nothing worse than constantly switching between keyboard and mouse to get your work done.

I have no problems switching between mouse and keyboard. The real signallers have to do even more than that (physically answer the phone, fill out forms, etc.).

" said:
If you are doing repetitious text entry for long periods of time (such as entering headcodes), every superfluous click or keypress becomes annoying after a while.

Since interposing a headcode via the keyboard is a part of SimSig then it must be the part of a signallers' real job...after-all, SimSig is (in my honest opinion) the most realistic representation of a real signallers job and experiences (minus the serious incidents which understandably aren't simulated).

" said:
Reducing the number of key presses and mouse clicks to the bare minimum immediately increases the appeal of any software.

'fraid to say if you find the amount of typing and clicking a problem then perhaps SimSig isn't for you.
Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for.
Last edited: 22/11/2011 at 02:18 by UKTrainMan
Log in to reply
The following users said thank you: BarryM, delticfan, Signalhunter
Re: Clicking train on map highlights it on Train List 22/11/2011 at 09:27 #23470
delticfan
Avatar
476 posts 		" said:
Dear Maxand

I've held off commenting over the past few days, but I would point out that the large body of SimSig users has found the current input method perfectly satisfactory for its purpose for a considerable period of time. It seems a little unreasonable to request root and branch changes after just a few days of experience with this already very well tested and much appreciated software.

My experience of thirty years of working with and developing public-facing and staff-facing user interfaces highlighted above all the dangers of change for change's sake and the value of the hackneyed old saying 'If it ain't broke ...'

Just my twopennyworth, which I hope will be accepted in the spirit in which it is intended.

Mike
Mike, I have to admit I agree with your sentiments. I find alternating between typing and mouse usage so natural in something like Simsig. If those are the way actions are done in 'real life' signalling, that's good enough for me.

Mal.
Log in to reply
Re: Clicking train on map highlights it on Train List 22/11/2011 at 10:43 #23471
maxand
Avatar
1637 posts 		Thanks to everyone who responded to my thread.

I thought UKTrainMan's suggestion of an on-screen keyboard interesting, as (being built into Windows) it would seem to offer the best alternative to typing on the keyboard. But you omitted to mention whether you use this feature yourself. Your reply implies that you don't.

Another solution is a one-handed (chordal) keyboard, again not very successful.

MikeW said

Quote:
I've held off commenting over the past few days, but I would point out that the large body of SimSig users has found the current input method perfectly satisfactory for its purpose for a considerable period of time. It seems a little unreasonable to request root and branch changes after just a few days of experience with this already very well tested and much appreciated software.

My experience of thirty years of working with and developing public-facing and staff-facing user interfaces highlighted above all the dangers of change for change's sake and the value of the hackneyed old saying 'If it ain't broke ...'

Just my twopennyworth, which I hope will be accepted in the spirit in which it is intended.
Thanks for your sincere comments, much appreciated.

This thread has turned from a single, relatively simple suggestion into a discussion about the merits of mice vs keyboards. Since my original idea bypassed the keyboard entirely, I feel that nothing much more can be gained from this discussion, except for one thing.

Most people who responded are experienced users who say they feel comfortable with the present interface and see no need to change. While I am somewhat disappointed with the lack of support for it from the rank and file, this is not unexpected as I have been involved with software interface usability in the past and this is usually what happens.

The solution is that if enough people remember this thread, come out in future and say "Let's try it", then the developers should make this (and any other innovations) optional at first, even if it means restarting the sim, once, for this to take effect. Then after say six months, they should take a poll on users' reactions. It might be interesting to see how many find they actually prefer the newer solution. Cheers.
Last edited: 22/11/2011 at 10:46 by maxand
Log in to reply
Re: Clicking train on map highlights it on Train List 22/11/2011 at 12:04 #23472
Forest Pines
Avatar
525 posts 		On scrolly sims, hovering over a train on the overview window will show some data: I think it's limited to headcode and description, though. It appears in the title bar of the window.

As someone who uses computers a lot, I do find it a lot easier to keep my hands in one place. If I'm programming, I keep my hands on the keyboard as much as I can; if I'm doing photo editing, I keep my hands on the mouse. For SimSig, if I'm doing a "hard" sim like Trent or Edinburgh I will generally have my primary hand on the mouse and the other on the cursor keys; that hand does interposing when necessary, which generally isn't that often. I can't play a sim of that difficulty level without a mouse - I've tried on a trackpad and it's just too fiddly. The best pointing device I've found for Simsig, though, is a graphics pen set to "absolute" mode - I wish I still had one! Maybe I'll need to get one again when London Bridge comes out...
Log in to reply
Re: Clicking train on map highlights it on Train List 22/11/2011 at 12:26 #23473
GeoffM
Avatar
6284 posts
Online 		Real life signallers have more than one keyboard to deal with usually, particularly IECC/Westcad/MCS - one for the control system, another for TRUST, and sometimes another for Cab Secure Radio (CSR). Plus a multitude of buttons or touch screens for signal post telephones (and several telephones). And paperwork using good old fashioned pen and paper. So signallers rarely have the luxury of just using one hand device at a time.

For TRESIM we do have an on-screen keyboard. The reason behind this was because the real kit uses a special keyboard (custom built, extra keys, etc) which the developers don't have on their desks for reasons of space and cost. So an on-screen keyboard was produced so those special buttons could be "pressed". However, in terms of use, it's quicker and easier to click the special keys using the mouse but type the regular keys (A-Z, 0-9) on the PC keyboard. Clicking a sequence of keys is like one finger typing with your thumb.
SimSig Boss
Log in to reply
Re: Clicking train on map highlights it on Train List 22/11/2011 at 22:26 #23506
maxand
Avatar
1637 posts 		Forest Pines wrote

Quote:
The best pointing device I've found for Simsig, though, is a graphics pen set to "absolute" mode
Now that's an interesting suggestion, must look into it...

Also thanks Geoff for your real-life insight into this problem.
Log in to reply
Re: Clicking train on map highlights it on Train List 08/01/2012 at 13:13 #26928
maxand
Avatar
1637 posts 		I'd like to add one more suggestion to this feature request.

When the mouse cursor is hovering over a berth (containing a valid TD) AND F2 is pressed, the Train List window is displayed with that TD highlighted and (visible, of course). If the mouse cursor does not happen to be over such a berth, pressing F2 simply opens the Train List window as usual.

Coding this should present no problem as the software already recognizes whether or not the mouse cursor happens to be over a particular TD.

As requested earlier, left-clicking a TD while the Train List is open should also select (highlight) that TD on the train list.

Thanks for considering this.
Last edited: 08/01/2012 at 13:16 by maxand
Log in to reply
Re: Clicking train on map highlights it on Train List 25/02/2012 at 15:51 #29974
computeringjl
Avatar
29 posts 		would it be possible for only 'xxxx' trains be able to hightlight it on train list in case the signaller was setting other routes after that one and forgot about that particular train id
Last edited: 25/02/2012 at 15:52 by computeringjl
Log in to reply
Back