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| Invisible trains in Bristol 1985 v3.21 24/11/2011 at 12:35 #23544 | |
maxand
1637 posts |
I started Bristol 1985 v3.21 0530, Beginner level, making sure I selected "1980s based" in Options, said yes to all the shunters who phoned me to say trains were ready to appear, and now when I'm trying to chase them up, I notice several trains are missing from the map. To take just the first two examples, you can see there are no trains at 553 and 635. Why? Last edited: 24/11/2011 at 12:39 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: Invisible trains in Bristol 1985 v3.21 24/11/2011 at 12:44 #23545 | |
37223
36 posts |
Hi Maxand The trains are there but they wont appear until you have set them a route, if you set a route from sig 635 to sig 345 the 5A04 should appear, you will then have to manually interpose the train id when it appears on the sim its probably easier to do this when it reaches sig 345. You have to do this with all the trains that are waiting at reds on your game as they are just entry points, eg the 5B132 you need to set a route from sig 462 to sig 62 Hope this is of some help Matt Log in to reply |
| Re: Invisible trains in Bristol 1985 v3.21 24/11/2011 at 12:45 #23546 | |
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taffy
28 posts |
There is no berth at these signal for a train desciber. If you set up a route to the next signal, then the train will move into the set route, which will have a berth to enable you manual interpose a train description.
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| Re: Invisible trains in Bristol 1985 v3.21 24/11/2011 at 12:51 #23547 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Thanks for your quick replies. To set a route I have to know their timetables. How am I supposed to know their timetables if there isn't a berth for me to click on and bring up the Show Timetable window? Seems like a catch-22 situation here!
Last edited: 24/11/2011 at 12:52 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: Invisible trains in Bristol 1985 v3.21 24/11/2011 at 13:02 #23548 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
I just realized the train's route is included in the shunter's message (which I don't normally bother reading in detail as I'm normally flooded with a mass of calls as soon as I commence the sim). That introduces a new problem. If I say OK and get on with answering the next call, I lose all that valuable info in the shunter's message. Hmm, so I guess the approved method is to keep him waiting while I use the info to set the route, then get back to him and answer OK. Is this how people normally do it? Log in to reply |
| Re: Invisible trains in Bristol 1985 v3.21 24/11/2011 at 13:11 #23549 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Also discovered that when telephone message window is open, it's a modal window, meaning the main map panel is disabled, preventing me from setting a route while reading the shunter's message. Damn. :S However, I can select (highlight) all the timetable info in this window and copy it to a text editor window or sticky note somewhere, click OK to close the window and return to the sim. Thank god for that. Wish I'd read that somewhere in the Wiki before trying this sim. (added) Works this way now. Thanks again. Last edited: 24/11/2011 at 13:24 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: Invisible trains in Bristol 1985 v3.21 24/11/2011 at 14:08 #23550 | |
DriverCurran
683 posts |
Max A lot of the newer simulations have hyperlinked sticky notes. With these if you post the train ID then click on the underlined text it will bring up the trains timetable. Please note that not all sims have this (it depends where they are on the refresh schedule). Paul You have to get a red before you can get any other colour Log in to reply |
| Re: Invisible trains in Bristol 1985 v3.21 24/11/2011 at 15:28 #23551 | |
GeoffM
6285 posts |
You can close the telephone window with the X in the top right which doesn't give a reply. Instead the call remains in the list so you can go back to it later.
SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Re: Invisible trains in Bristol 1985 v3.21 24/11/2011 at 15:34 #23552 | |
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UKTrainMan
1803 posts |
Of note is the fact that on this Wiki page (a page which you yourself have edited to improve upon by adding the bit about catch points  ) it does show an example of the track where the train is and mentions it is "Track controlled by another signalbox or not track-circuited". It is no surprise that a train doesn't show up, however one would wonder if any future updates of Bristol could feature the same option as in Central Scotland where users can select to show non-TC areas as having TCs.
Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for. Log in to reply |
| Re: Invisible trains in Bristol 1985 v3.21 24/11/2011 at 17:39 #23555 | |
Steamer
3923 posts |
Personally, I pause the sim when you start getting calls, and deal with them all while paused (this is allowed on Bristol), setting routes and interposing in the next available berth, before un-pausing and then playing as normal.
"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
| Re: Invisible trains in Bristol 1985 v3.21 24/11/2011 at 19:21 #23559 | |
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alan_s
152 posts |
Yep, I do that as well, and find it rather frustrating in the newer sims that you aren't allowed to answer the phone or set routes while paused.
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| Re: Invisible trains in Bristol 1985 v3.21 24/11/2011 at 22:58 #23568 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Thank you all again for your further helpful advice and suggestions. Paul (DriverCurran) said Quote: A lot of the newer simulations have hyperlinked sticky notes. With these if you post the train ID then click on the underlined text it will bring up the trains timetable. Please note that not all sims have this (it depends where they are on the refresh schedule).Thanks, that's much better than my workaround of copying the TT into an open text editor! I had no idea that clicking on the blue hyperlink opened the train's TT window, in fact I thought it was some kind of spelling checker, since only headcodes got the underline. Steamer said Quote: Personally, I pause the sim when you start getting calls, and deal with them all while paused (this is allowed on Bristol), setting routes and interposing in the next available berth, before un-pausing and then playing as normal.Yes, I discovered this was a better way too than simply letting the sim run. After all, If I get flooded with phone calls as soon as I start a sim (which seems unrealistic, they should be spaced out over several minutes), I should be able to deal with them all beforehand (set routes, interpose, etc.) so that I can start off on top of the sim. Seems a bit unfair to players. However, alan_s said Quote: Yep, I do that as well, and find it rather frustrating in the newer sims that you aren't allowed to answer the phone or set routes while paused.This appears to be another of SimSig's delightful features designed to separate the boys from the men. What we need is a Beginners' Options tab in all setups, with all options (such as "Allowed to set routes while Paused", "Allowed to answer telephone calls", etc.) enabled by default, and with one checkbox at the top and above all the others, labelled "Disable all Beginners' Options" for the experienced players. As I've said elsewhere, I'm certainly not against making sims realistic, but I'm against being thrown in for the first time at the deep end. But, returning to the topic, what really threw me was SimSig's inconsistency. I had been used to situations such as in Exeter:  The shunter calls me, I give permission and 5L65 dutifully appears, berth, headcode and all. Why can't all sims be like this? If I didn't create 5L65's berth here, who did? I can't imagine a lowly shunter having access to inserting headcodes into a panel. The corollary to this is, next time I try out a brand new sim, how am I supposed to know whether to go the stickynote route or expect the train to appear magically? Suck it and see, as we say here? Last edited: 24/11/2011 at 23:03 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: Invisible trains in Bristol 1985 v3.21 24/11/2011 at 23:07 #23569 | |
jc92
3630 posts |
" said:becuase not all sims have been refreshed with updated core code to provide this feature yet. exeter has recently been refreshed hence is one of the most "modern" sims in terms of features and coding. on some older sims, when a train enters and beginner mode is selected, the train will have its headcode interposed automatically unlike on higher difficulties. the way to know if to create a stickynote (or just memorise everything like i do) is that the train will ask for permission to enter ONLY in the newer coding. otherwise simply assume you need to make stickies. or a simpler idea.....just experiment with the sim and find out? lowly shunter? slightly insulting perhaps to an important job. but at some depots, they can be provided with description equipment, or else a telephone. some depots also have a signalling panel a bit like a shunt frame as a side note, bristol is really more of a multiplayer sim and in the multiplayer environment, the high volume of calls does become more manageable. ive never actually seen you on a multiplayer game yet as far as i know. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Last edited: 24/11/2011 at 23:08 by jc92 Log in to reply |
| Re: Invisible trains in Bristol 1985 v3.21 24/11/2011 at 23:12 #23570 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Quote:becuase not all sims have been refreshed with updated core code to provide this feature yet. exeter has recently been refreshed hence is one of the most "modern" sims in terms of features and coding.Ah (light comes on). Well, that's a step in the right direction. Quote: ive never actually seen you on a multiplayer game yet as far as i know.I don't know SS well enough yet to feel competent joining a multiplayer game. Maybe one day. PS one of my best friends was a shunter on Victorian Railways for many years - a physically difficult and dangerous job with many fatalities. AFAIK, his only contact with the rest of the railway was by telephone, so I assumed that receiving a timetable "form" from a shunter was simply a convenience built into SimSig. Last edited: 25/11/2011 at 00:30 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: Invisible trains in Bristol 1985 v3.21 25/11/2011 at 09:27 #23587 | |
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Forest Pines
525 posts |
" said:Is it really a better sim as multiplayer? Personally I find it a nice relaxing one that is good to play when I don't feel like concentrating hard. Moreover, apart from the "midnight seeding rush", the 80s timetable is much quieter than a more modern one, particularly when you get to mid-afternoon. Log in to reply |
| Re: Invisible trains in Bristol 1985 v3.21 25/11/2011 at 09:37 #23588 | |
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Firefly
521 posts |
Quote:But, returning to the topic, what really threw me was SimSig's inconsistency. I had been used to situations such as in Exeter:Quote: The shunter calls me, I give permission and 5L65 dutifully appears, berth, headcode and all. Why can't all sims be like this?There are other factors here. Firstly, if there's no TD berth in reality there won't be a TD berth in SimSig Secondly, your Exeter example is a main signal and does have an associated TD berth. In the same simulation you'll find Fairwater Yard works in exactly the same way as Bristol. Fairwater Yard is a shunt signal. Shunter Phones Up. Note the train number and the entry point (Pen and Paper is what a real signaller would generally use)  Put the TD description in the first berth that the train will go to. (You can then click it for TT info)  Then, once you've confirmed you have it correct, set the route.  This is NOT a SimSig inconsistency it's an accurate representation of the operating system that's being simulated. In order for a TD description to "dutifully appear" the shunter must interpose it using a TD terminal. There are very few sidings and yards that are equipped with TD terminals, therefore it's very rare for descriptions to dutifully appear at yards. You seem extremely critical of Simsig. If you want something simple, may I suggest that you BUY PCRail? It's a second rate sim that has an ok attempt at simulating UK signalling and it's probably far more consistent as they make no attempt to accurately simulate things. (It's a bit like the standard 737 that comes with Microsoft flight simulator......Rubbish). If however you want a true to life ultra realistic simulation you have the opportunity to use one of the many - FREE simulations offered by Simsig. In flight sim terms Simsig is like PMDG's 737 add on, you can actually learn to operate the real aircraft by using it (and yes, I do talk from experience). Please continue to ask all the question that you wish, but stop assuming that the problems that you are encountering are Simsig errors. FF Post has attachments. Log in to view them. Log in to reply The following users said thank you: delticfan, MikeW, Signalhunter |
| Re: Invisible trains in Bristol 1985 v3.21 25/11/2011 at 10:04 #23590 | |
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delticfan
476 posts |
Cheers for that Firefly, you've answered the very query on Bristol which I was going to ask. Proves it pays to search the forum, you never know what you'll find, that's the beauty of Simsig. Mal.
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| Re: Invisible trains in Bristol 1985 v3.21 25/11/2011 at 11:52 #23595 | |
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kbarber
1712 posts |
I think some people here are being a little hard on Max. Sure, his challenges are sometimes a bit fierce. But so are some of the responses, particularly now (following Geoff's early responses) he's become more openly questioning of the reasons for things rather than simply demanding changes. As others have said, here's a new user (seemingly without any signalling knowledge or experience?) discovering the hard way what SimSig is all about and challenging us to raise our game in terms of the information we provide to learners. Some of us may not like certain things Max says, but if he & we continue to work more positively we will end up with a far more usable product - mainly (though perhaps not only) because he's doing a grand job of asking the questions we no longer need to think of, ferreting out the answers and putting them up on the Wiki. A few specific points. There has been discussion around the "beginners options" already, albeit not in those terms, when the new core code started affecting released sims. I'm not sure whether a consensus was reached or not. Even if it was, it'll be a while before the new tab appears in existing sims (and, if it's a core code amendment, forthcoming and newly refreshed sims too). Personally I'd be very much in favour of them, but I'd suggest they aren't just a beginners issue. Although we claim SimSig is particularly realistic (a claim I support wholeheartedly), there are a number of compromises & unrealistic aspects. The one that's relevant here is that most sims represent the workload of at least two (usually rather more) signalmen (I suspect I'm right in saying that only Royston and Oxted would be worked by a single person but am open to correction). For all sorts of reasons many of us "play" alone most of the time. Inhibiting phone calls and routesetting while paused makes singlehanded working just too difficult, even for a player who understands the system and knows the area well enough. So how about it Geoff/Clive/developers? Can we have some options to allow various activities while paused, so us singletons can sensibly play some of the bigger (albit, I'm sure, never biggest) sims? The rush at the beginning of a session is another necessary compromise as things stand. One of SimSig's limitations is that trains can only be introduced into the sim at "legitimate" entry points (lines entering from other boxes, yards & sidings where trains enter & leave the operating area - but not single sidings where capacity is limited & trains do nothing more than await their next working). That makes a problem at the start of a session, unless it's one of those boxes where there's little or no traffic overnight and no trains are stabled anywhere under the signalman's control: if you start a timetable at midnight, you somehow need to get all the trains into the sim that would normally be running around at midnight, and somewhere in the region of the location you'd expect them at. The SimSig solution has always been to "seed" trains at the nearest locations; if that means a 125mph express appears from a minor siding in the middle of nowhere, that's a compromise that has to be accepted as the alternative is to have no train before the first entry from an adjacent box. As there's a fair bit of activity at Temple Meads around midnight, the beginning of a session has loads of seeds appearing all around, many of which need to be got into TM where the night's activities can then get under way. Of course, in a sim like Bristol where everything from a siding is done with phone calls, that means a great flurry as soon as you start (and where trains simply appear, as in the likes of Kings Cross, it's a major task to get all the routes set in a sensible time as the seeds enter, particularly where there's conflicts). Something I've suggested is that there should be some way of resetting the SimSig clock at midnight, so that each day can carry on from the last (at present session times go on beyond 27:00 or even 28:00 hours to clear the day's workings, but then end without any way of continuing). That, and a facility to allow a given timetable to be preceded by some kind of "run-up" timetable (but then to roll over to itself at 24:00) would allow a sim to be populated with less aggro than the present seeding approach. The down side is that the run-up might be rather boring, especially with a large sim, as trains would take a long time to get themselves into position for midnight; I can easily see a two-hour run-up of nothing but positioning moves. It would be worse where sims were chained. Imagine a chain of Exeter, Bristol, Gloucester, Westbury and Swindid; how long is it going to take to position trains at Westbury and Bristol TM and Taunton, to be ready to start the timetable proper at midnight? I think the ideal would be a midnight rollover and a facility to populate a sim with trains at any chosen location at the point of startup. But I fear that would need such violence doing to the core code that it ain't going to happen, even though I live in hope (well I don't think Geoff has completely refused so far at any rate). Further to the differences between sims (and locations) where headcodes do & don't appear, there's both operational and historical issues here. Bristol was a mid-1960s installation and, like Swindon (old), Reading and Old Oak Common inter alia, was built with the Western Region's delightful(?!) electro-mechanical train describers. These took up two of the "domino" tiles, each of which carried two vertical rotating drums which had numbers or letters cut into them and with a light bulb at the centre. The light shining through the stencils, of course, indicated the description (there were small apertures in the domino surface so only one character of each drum was visible). There were two types of tile, one which had a number and a letter while t'other had two numbers. Set-up was by a telephone dial, which entered the four characters in turn into a setup berth, after which the signalman pressed a button (white, from memory) at the desired signal berth to interpose the description. I don't recall whether this button (and the black "cancel" below it) were incorporated in the "two numbers" tile or were on a third tile to the right of the other two. As there were only 10 positions (+ blank), the available letters were limited; there seemed to be several versions, with different selections of letters, presumably chosen to represent the most common codes in those locations - but they did become somewhat mixed up with the passage of years, so a train could appear to change its letter as it progressed across a panel!!! (Local knowledge was essential...) One advantage was that the description was stored in the drums themselves, a useful saving in complication in those days of relays and uniselectors (apparently the chatter of uniselectors in the relay room at Watford Junction had to be heard to be believed). (I think the other claimed advantage was that it was a Western product; those were the days when they still didn't quite accept that they'd been nationalised  ) Of course, there was no inclination to provide describer facilities where they didn't have to - 'twas complicated enough as it was, and as most signalmen still came up through mechanical boxes where describers were unknown, it caused no great conceptual difficulty. More recently, of course, computer-based describers have made provision of additional describers very easy, so they tend to appear wherever someone decides there's an operational need - which is likely to be wherever a group of sidings frequently feeds trains/stock into a busy area. (There's quite a few yards/depots now which have fully-fledged signalboxes to control them as well as others where there's a proper panel; I think these are more likely to have describers than where there's just hand points and a shunters' cabin.)HTH Keith Last edited: 25/11/2011 at 11:53 by kbarber Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Signalhunter, postal, maxand |
| Re: Invisible trains in Bristol 1985 v3.21 25/11/2011 at 13:08 #23597 | |
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Forest Pines
525 posts |
" said:I'm no developer, but I understand that it is now possible to make an arbitrary section of track an entry point. Certainly, in Edinburgh, trains can "drop out of the sky" and appear in the middle of the Mound tunnels to populate Waverley station, rather than having to enter from "offscene". (I suppose given that they appear in a tunnel in this case "drop out of the sky" is a bad description! But I think of it in terms of the model railway "hand of God" 
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| Re: Invisible trains in Bristol 1985 v3.21 25/11/2011 at 13:39 #23602 | |
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Firefly
521 posts |
Quote:(I suppose given that they appear in a tunnel in this case "drop out of the sky" is a bad description! But I think of it in terms of the model railway "hand of God")When we do this in the real world we refer to it as parachuting a train in. (Obviously we don't actually put a real train on the track, just occupy the track to simulate a train) Log in to reply |
| Re: Invisible trains in Bristol 1985 v3.21 25/11/2011 at 14:22 #23607 | |
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jc92
3630 posts |
oxted also has this facility
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Re: Invisible trains in Bristol 1985 v3.21 25/11/2011 at 18:10 #23636 | |
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clive
2738 posts |
" said:No, it's a result of varying opinions. Once upon a time pausing just stopped the clock and didn't have any other effect. Then people complained that it made it unrealistic - you could pause and sort out the mess you'd got into. Pausing - they implied - should just be for having a PNB. As soon as Geoff implemented that, we got the opposite complaint! So, depending on the core code the sim was built with, you might or might not be able to do things when the sim is paused. Quote: What we need is a Beginners' Options tab in all setups, with all options (such as "Allowed to set routes while Paused", "Allowed to answer telephone calls", etc.) enabled by default,I don't know how this is going to be resolved. That's one possibility. Quote: But, returning to the topic, what really threw me was SimSig's inconsistency. I had been used to situations such as in Exeter:As others have said, it is sim-specific and location-specific. Quote: The corollary to this is, next time I try out a brand new sim, how am I supposed to know whether to go the stickynote route or expect the train to appear magically? Suck it and see, as we say here?Yes. It's part of learning the territory. It's part of the fun of a new sim. Log in to reply |
| Re: Invisible trains in Bristol 1985 v3.21 25/11/2011 at 18:17 #23637 | |
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clive
2738 posts |
" said:As others have said, here's a new user (seemingly without any signalling knowledge or experience?) discovering the hard way what SimSig is all about and challenging us to raise our game in terms of the information we provide to learners. Some of us may not like certain things Max says, but if he & we continue to work more positively we will end up with a far more usable product - mainly (though perhaps not only) because he's doing a grand job of asking the questions we no longer need to think of, ferreting out the answers and putting them up on the Wiki.Indeed. I, for one, am glad he's asking. For example, his posts led me to add signal numbers (as an option) to Euston. I'd be interested in feedback on it - does it help, or do they just get in the way? Quote: This is a core code issue. Geoff will make a decision at some point. Quote: I have some ideas about this, but they'll take a while to implement and even when done they might not work out, so don't hold your breath. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: derbybest |
| Re: Invisible trains in Bristol 1985 v3.21 25/11/2011 at 23:57 #23649 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Thanks everyone and particularly Keith and Clive for your posts. I've learned a great deal from this thread, not least how very different sims can be from each other and how important local knowledge is. I'm a "singleton" too and will remain so for some time. Haven't looked at Euston yet, but the presence of signal numbers will be a big boon especially as I hear it's an advanced (and therefore large) sim. Didn't realize that the methods of "seeding" trains is still fluid and subject to further development. Makes sense. As I understand it, if I enter a non-standard time when setting up the sim, then any train appearing before the start time simply does not show up, which is unrealistic, I guess, but a big help when starting at a non-standard time to solve a particular bug. If SimSig offered a "rollover" daily timetable (e.g., the TT recycled at midnight), then one could look for quiet spots in the TT and start playing from them. I'm not aware of any SS sims that roll over in this fashion. In Train Dispatcher, there is usually a 24 hour timetable for every day in the week (e.g., excursion trains on weekends), so you nominate the day as well as the time when you wish to commence. When you eventually reach the end of one day, the next day automatically begins (you don't notice the transition, which is one reason sims like this can become so addictive), and so for the week. I realize this would mean a great deal of extra timetabling for the writers, but offer it as a suggestion to avoid buildup when starting to play. Conversely, there should be some optionally enabled built-in timer so that after you play for a certain time, no new trains are introduced and you have the satisfaction of seeing the last one off and returning to the real (ugh!) world. With its animated display, flashing lights and black background SimSig and its ilk are not that different from casino games (hmm, incorporate a pay-to-play version?) :) Reminds me of the simpler but beautifully graphic Locomania, which knows not when to stop if one is playing for sheer pleasure, and not for points. Returning to the topic, I think the bottom line is that if the beginner is adequately prepared by the manual for which signals require which kind of interaction between player and shunter, or no interaction at all, uncertainty about this will be kept to a minimum. With experience this problem goes away and, to be fair, most manuals do a successful job of resolving the sticky bits. Last edited: 25/11/2011 at 23:58 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: Invisible trains in Bristol 1985 v3.21 26/11/2011 at 09:29 #23656 | |
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GeoffM
6285 posts |
Quote:This has already been (un)done. It will appear in released sims soon. SimSig Boss Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Signalhunter, alan_s, Didcot |