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| Bristol 1980s era locations quick reference 07/12/2011 at 04:49 #24622 | |
maxand
1637 posts |
I've created a text file containing all place names seen on the Bristol sim, 1980s layout, grouped by areas on the layout, e.g., Weston, Bristol West, Bristol Temple Meads, Bristol East, etc. The file is detailed enough for anyone to trace the areas through which the main lines run. The purpose of this file is to enable beginners and those unfamiliar with the territory to search quickly for a location taken from the "Curr/Prev Location" column on the Train List (F2). Here's a sample:======================To keep the text file narrow, the main sections going from left to right on the layout map are listed from top to bottom in the location guide. Note this is a rough grouping, but quite adequate for a general overview and quick searching. SimSig sims have no way that I know of jumping to a particular train or location on the layout map, given a headcode or location name. If you're told that a train is waiting at a red signal and last reported at [unfamiliar name], or its TT tells you to set a route to [unfamiliar name], you have to pause the sim and scan the layout or the signal map for a particular location, which can take several minutes and lots of eyestrain. So I devised this file which can be opened in Notepad and very quickly searched. Some Notepad replacement apps (EditPad, for example) have incremental search built in, which makes it a lot easier (just enter the first few characters and the cursor automatically jumps to the first place match). Additionally, none of the signal map PDF files I've looked at enable me to search for signal numbers or place names since they simply contain a screenshot graphic enclosed in a PDF file. Once you have located this name in the file, you can soon see to which section it belongs (e.g., Chipping Sodbury turns out to be on the Badminton Line, which leads back to Bristol Parkway), then use Overview or scrolling to go there. This file does not contain signal numbers; that's something you can do yourself for ones you think are important (e.g., reversing signals). I've deliberately used a consistent syntax in this file which should aid searching, but if you don't like it, you can simplify the file, add your own comments, etc. Unlike a PDF file, text files do not require payware to edit, and are fast and small. Once you have played the sim a few times you probably won't need this file as you can find your own way around. I've added a link to it on the manual page as I feel it belongs there rather than get lost among the extras, etc. When I move onto the modern-day version of Bristol I'll probably upload a second location guide, if you guys like the idea, since many more locations have been added. The idea is what matters here. After floundering around this extensive scrolling sim, sitting down and creating this text file made me much more confident about the way the different main lines were related, so you might do better to sit down and create your own area guide rather than try to follow mine. If you do, please upload - stuff like this is easily edited to suit one's own requirements. By the way, I came across these unfamiliar acronyms: RTS (Barrow Road) HLS (Bristol Temple Meads) CRL (Bridgwater) Anyone know what they mean? Last edited: 07/12/2011 at 05:19 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: Bristol 1980s era locations quick reference 07/12/2011 at 05:15 #24623 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
One other thing I noticed while compiling the guide. On the layout in the Weston area, just next to the Gas House Lane LC there are two loops, labelled UPL and DPL. Shouldn't the latter be named DNL? 
Last edited: 07/12/2011 at 05:15 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: Bristol 1980s era locations quick reference 07/12/2011 at 07:55 #24627 | |
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AndyG
1834 posts |
Nope, UPL=Up Passing Loop, DPL= Down Passing loop (as opposed to UGL/DGL=Up/Down Goods loop). In other words, a UPL/DPL is OK to run passenger trains.
I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Last edited: 07/12/2011 at 07:57 by AndyG Log in to reply |
| Re: Bristol 1980s era locations quick reference 07/12/2011 at 13:08 #24646 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Thanks Andy for that explanation.
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| Re: Bristol 1980s era locations quick reference 07/12/2011 at 13:19 #24647 | |
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Forest Pines
525 posts |
" said:Refuse Transfer Siding, I think - I might have the "S" wrong there. It is a siding serving the city I'm not sure what CRL stands for, but the purpose of the siding is to load nuclear waste from Hinckley Point power station onto trains. Log in to reply |
| Re: Bristol 1980s era locations quick reference 07/12/2011 at 13:34 #24648 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
(To AndyG:) Actually, on second thoughts I think Up Passenger Loop and Down Passenger Loop are more likely, since Passing Loops are found only on single lines to enable trains to pass each other in opposite directions. What do you think? Loop RTS = Refuse Transfer Siding. LOL! The Poms sure know how to beat the Yanks at creating euphemisms!  Thanks Forest Pines for that tip. Local knowledge sure helps. 
Last edited: 07/12/2011 at 13:41 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: Bristol 1980s era locations quick reference 07/12/2011 at 14:14 #24650 | |
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ralphjwchadkirk
275 posts |
I have to admit, I did think it was Up Passenger Loop. In any case, the different is that passenger loops may be shorter than goods loops, and goods loops are not suitable for passenger trains unless specially authorised.
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| Re: Bristol 1980s era locations quick reference 07/12/2011 at 20:10 #24658 | |
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jrr
95 posts |
HLS may be High Level Siding (or something like that) - its position is where a line used to diverge and climb a bit to go over the road at the bottom of the station approach and on through Redcliffe Hill.
Last edited: 07/12/2011 at 20:11 by jrr Log in to reply |
| Re: Bristol 1980s era locations quick reference 07/12/2011 at 21:02 #24659 | |
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officer dibble
390 posts |
" said:HLS may be High Level Siding......Correct Log in to reply |
| Re: Bristol 1980s era locations quick reference 08/12/2011 at 01:23 #24678 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Thanks for the HLS info. I'm still a bit confused about UPL and DPL, but from looking at the sim they would seem to mean Passing Loops rather than Passenger Loops, particularly as the one at Bristol Parkway is clearly in a Goods area. To sum up, there are three UPLs and one DPL in the Bristol sim: 1) UPL and DPL adjacent to Gas House Lane LC in the Weston section. Unfortunately lengths are not included in the manual. Maybe Geoff M can fill in the details. 2) UPL 525m at Bathampton Jn. 3) UPL 457m (Up), 252m (Dn) at Bristol Parkway (Modern Era only, marked UP GDS in 1980s era). From the lengths of these loops I would assume they are all intended for freight trains. Two questions: How would we know if the passing loops along main lines such as the Gas House Lane loops are suitable or not for passenger trains? Is there a distinctive acronym for passenger loops to distinguish them from goods loops? One of the things I miss about Train Dispatcher is that R-clicking any block (e.g., in a loop) would display its block number and, more importantly, block length. It would be nice to see this feature incorporated into SimSig, even though I get the impression that real-life signallers refer to printed tables. Last edited: 08/12/2011 at 02:01 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: Bristol 1980s era locations quick reference 08/12/2011 at 02:12 #24680 | |
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UKTrainMan
1803 posts |
" said:How would we know if the passing loops along main lines such as the Gas House Lane loops are suitable or not for passenger trains? Is there a distinctive acronym for passenger loops to distinguish them from goods loops? " said: UPL=Up Passing Loop, DPL= Down Passing loop (as opposed to UGL/DGL=Up/Down Goods loop). In other words, a UPL/DPL is OK to run passenger trains. Simple way to remember it: G for Goods, P for Passenger or Passing. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but you can use an Up/Down Passing Loop for freight too (to let a passenger train overtake it). " said: One of the things I miss about Train Dispatcher is that R-clicking any block (e.g., in a loop) would display its block number and, more importantly, block length. It would be nice to see this feature incorporated into SimSig, even though I get the impression that real-life signallers refer to printed tables. I wouldn't think this would appear in simulations, since, like you effectively say, it doesn't work like that in real life. That said though, I cannot see a reason why the lengths couldn't be made available via some form of documentation on the Wiki. Be it a more detailed version of the signalling diagram, a separate diagram or a list. Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for. Last edited: 08/12/2011 at 02:53 by UKTrainMan Log in to reply The following users said thank you: maxand, Late Turn |
| Re: Bristol 1980s era locations quick reference 08/12/2011 at 06:54 #24696 | |
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Late Turn
696 posts |
" said:Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but you can use an Up/Down Passing Loop for freight too (to let a passenger train overtake it). I'm not sure I've ever seen a loop officially designated as 'Passing Loop' ('Loop' usually suffices where its bidirectional, to distinguish it from the 'Main'; if it's not bidirectional, 'Up' and 'Down' designations will do, as there's no other lines to distinguish these from!). However you can indeed use such a loop to allow a following train to pass, but only where one or more of the lines is bidirectional (such that both lines can be used in the direction of travel), e.g. at Bestwood loop on Trent. You couldn't do it at, say, Topsham or Credition on Exeter (ignoring the shunt move into the Down platform from CN1, which I'm still not convinced exists in reality). I've failed so far to find a loop where you can 'overtake' in one direction but not the other! Tom Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Prof Jolly, maxand |
| Re: Bristol 1980s era locations quick reference 08/12/2011 at 07:19 #24699 | |
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Forest Pines
525 posts |
" said:I've failed so far to find a loop where you can 'overtake' in one direction but not the other!It was quite common in mechanical signalling days, at single line boxes which could be switched out - it wasn't deliberately designed into the interlocking, but it was a side-effect of making it possible to switch out: you get a bidirectional main line and a single-direction loop. The switchable boxes on the Severn Valley have this sort of diagram, although I don't know if doing that move is permitted in their regs. Going back to the loops near Yatton: my copies of the Quail books are in a box somewhere at the moment, but I am fairly sure that "Passenger Loop" is the explanation in their glossary for all UPL and DPL abbreviations; their abbreviation list also has "UGL" and "DGL" for the opposite case, "Goods Loop". Going back to another thread Max started recently, one way you can identify a goods loop is that routes into it probably won't have an overlap at the signal, whereas the Yatton loops do have overlaps extending back onto the main line. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Bristol 1980s era locations quick reference 08/12/2011 at 12:27 #24709 | |
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kbarber
1712 posts |
" said:I get the impression that real-life signallers refer to printed tables. In my day that was part of what you learned - by a sort of osmosis - when you learned the box. Having said which, most routes had a standard authorised train length (most commonly 60SLU IIRC), and I'm pretty certain that information was published somewhere (although I don't remember where, in spite of extensive racking of my brain cell). A SLU was 21 feet! (Really; it was the length over buffers of a standard 4-wheel mineral wagon that made up the vast majority of British freight right up until the 1960s.) Loops could hold a train made up of two locos (3SLU each) and a brake van (I think they were rated at more than 1SLU but I don't recall exactly) plus the SLU length, so if you had a fully-fitted train worked by one loco you could get away with an extra 2 or 3 wagons without anyone objecting. Some trains were booked to run overlength and that would be noted in the WTT. Otherwise, Control might authorise a train to run overlength if you asked nicely (I occasionally turned 70 or 80SLU out of Willesden Brent when we were busy, though it was more common for weight to be the issue than length and overweight wouldn't be allowed). Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Bristol 1980s era locations quick reference 08/12/2011 at 12:30 #24710 | |
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kbarber
1712 posts |
" said:
If there's a subsidiary aspect on the signal controlling entry to the loop, it's almost certain to be signalled to goods standards & not normally authorised for passengers. (But of course there were exceptions. And Control, or a manager, including the signalbox supervisor (AKA "regulator" could authorise use by passenger trains where necessary.) Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Bristol 1980s era locations quick reference 08/12/2011 at 12:53 #24713 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Ain't it marvellous how, when you think you've got a topic mastered, along comes an exception to the rule? Thanks again Keith. That's very clear now. Log in to reply |
| Re: Bristol 1980s era locations quick reference 08/12/2011 at 13:12 #24716 | |
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Firefly
521 posts |
I'm in the passenger loop camp. I can't find any modern reference to this, however this extract is from GE/RT 8004 which was valid until 2008  Quote: How would we know if the passing loops along main lines such as the Gas House Lane loops are suitable or not for passenger trains?If it's called a DPL or UPL it's suitable for passengers If it's called a DGL or UGL then it's for goods trains only and not suitable for passenger trains. Simples! As an aside, passenger loops are often shorter than goods loops and they cannot always fit a full length goods train in them. (Read the manual, check the lengths) FF Post has attachments. Log in to view them. Log in to reply |
| Re: Bristol 1980s era locations quick reference 08/12/2011 at 13:29 #24719 | |
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kbarber
1712 posts |
Believe me Max, that's how the railway is wherever you go! If you've looked at John Hinson's website that I've recommended, you may have noticed there's a web forum ("The Blower" attached to that. The members include a number of IRSE and SRS luminaries, as well as us mere mortals. The esoterica makes anything discussed here look pretty minor by comparison (method of fixing a lamp case to a signal post anyone?) and the expertise impeccable. But just about anything that's said turns out to have exceptions.Which makes a surprising amount of sense actually. Signalling kit has a long life. The boxes at Stockport (LNWR Type 4 with Webb Tumbler frames) are over 120 years old and still in first-line service controlling a main line, with a good few years left in them yet. Obviously there's been numerous modifications over the years - probably the biggest when colour light signalling & electrification happened in the early 1960s. But I wouldn't be surprised to find some bits of the original LNWR installation lurking somewhere, which will be to the standards of the time. Euston PSB and Bristol Panel were commissioned in the mid-1960s, so much of what appears will be in accordance with the standards existing at the time. Kings X was 10 years newer; the standards had changed by then. And changed again by the time Westbury was opened in the 1980s (a standard length for overlaps had been established, for instance). Anything that changes will be built to the newest standards (unless it's completely impracticable to do so, in which case the newest possible - not necessarily those applying to the original installation - will be used where the modern are impossible to implement). Every company had its own ideas and standards, particularly in the minor details (the main signal aspects were broadly standardised from late Victorian times). Often it was a mixture of "not invented here" syndrome, trying to avoid paying patent royalties and a company's particular outlook on life[1]. That carried on into the power signalling era (the Gas Works Railway insisted on its turn-push NX panels, as at Bristol, for a long time after everyone else had gone for the now-standard push-push design, for example). Each of the major contractors had their own way of doing things too, so even if the panel looked similar there would probably be differences in the gubbins - and therefore, subtly, in the way the system responded to the operator. I think it was the 1990s - and may even have been the 2000s - before there was real standardisation. Don't worry, it trips us up as well sometimes :blush: [1] For example the LNWR and Midland Railway attitudes to crossovers. The LNWR often provided a separate lever for each end of the crossover (2 levers for the simplest from one line to another). If it was signalled for a facing move there was a separate lever for the FPL, if facing moves were possible both ways a separate FPL leaver for each end. Their reasoning was that this reduced the strain on each of the components, hence wear & tear and thus the cost of maintenance, which they reckoned justified the extraordinarily large boxes they ended up with in some places. Their equipment was heavily-engineered to the point of being clumsy, & lasted remarkably well. The Midland followed the more usual practice of one lever for both ends of the crossover. However they also liked "economical" FPLs - the FPL was worked by the same lever as the points. So a crossover in a Midland box would have one lever whether it was trailing or facing. The company believed it was more economical in the long run to build the smallest possible signalboxes (and, where signalens' rate of pay might be affected by how busy they were, to reduce the number of lever pulls they had to make). Log in to reply |
| Re: Bristol 1980s era locations quick reference 08/12/2011 at 20:52 #24750 | |
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clive
2738 posts |
" said:" said:I've never seen this engraved on a panel. More than once I've seen a sticky note saying "55 SLUs" or similar.One of the things I miss about Train Dispatcher is that R-clicking any block (e.g., in a loop) would display its block number and, more importantly, block length. It would be nice to see this feature incorporated into SimSig, even though I get the impression that real-life signallers refer to printed tables. Log in to reply |
| Re: Bristol 1980s era locations quick reference 08/12/2011 at 20:54 #24751 | |
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Firefly
521 posts |
Quote:I've never seen this engraved on a panel. More than once I've seen a sticky note saying "55 SLUs" or similar.Correct, usually using Dymo tape Log in to reply |
| Re: Bristol 1980s era locations quick reference 08/12/2011 at 20:57 #24753 | |
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clive
2738 posts |
[quote="Late Turn" post=24696I've failed so far to find a loop where you can 'overtake' in one direction but not the other! [/quote] According to the diagram on Cambridge PSB panel, Dullingham has a bidirectional line ("Up/Down Newmarket" and a Down Loop. Because of the level crossing, this can't be a switching-out arrangement.Quail also suggests that at the Low Fell Royal Mail Tyneside, the loop through the platform is bidirectional but the "straight" line is Down only (even though that means right-hand running). Penistone is also shown as bidirectional through platform 2 only. Log in to reply |
| Re: Bristol 1980s era locations quick reference 08/12/2011 at 21:03 #24755 | |
jc92
3629 posts |
Penistone is definitely only bi-di on one line only
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |