Recreate signal lamp failure to check for bug?

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Recreate signal lamp failure to check for bug? 20/01/2012 at 03:53 #27781
UKTrainMan
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1803 posts 		Is it possible to recreate a signal lamp failure to check for a bug?

Playing the rather excellent 2012 timetable , I've got 1H61 (formed from 5H61, which is due to enter at 05:38) about to depart from Platform 7 at 06:36 so I set the route as booked via Down Departure at 06:34 when I get a signal lamp failure.

Quote:
06:34:48 Signal lamp failure detected in the Euston area

One of Signal 72's lamps has failed on me, so I dropped the route from Signal 83 to see if I could get an aspect from Signal 72, but as I do so 1H61 receives an ACOA.

With the failure as it is, the platform starter for Platform 7 (Signal 7, funnily enough) wouldn't clear from red, so I was a bit surprised it received an ACOA.

'fraid I've got no save to provide for this, but would appreciate it if I could have a reply to this and/or if it could be looked into.

As usual, thanks in advance for reply/ies.
Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for.
Last edited: 20/01/2012 at 23:03 by UKTrainMan
Reason: adding 'lamp' to thread title
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Re: Recreate signal failure to check for bug? 20/01/2012 at 06:37 #27783
BarryM
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2158 posts 		" said:
Is it possible to recreate a signal lamp failure to check for a bug?

Playing the rather excellent 2012 timetable , I've got 1H61 (formed from 5H61, which is due to enter at 05:38) about to depart from Platform 7 at 06:36 so I set the route as booked via Down Departure at 06:34 when I get a signal lamp failure.

Quote:
06:34:48 Signal lamp failure detected in the Euston area

One of Signal 72's lamps has failed on me, so I dropped the route from Signal 83 to see if I could get an aspect from Signal 72, but as I do so 1H61 receives an ACOA.

With the failure as it is, the platform starter for Platform 7 (Signal 7, funnily enough) wouldn't clear from red, so I was a bit surprised it received an ACOA.

'fraid I've got no save to provide for this, but would appreciate it if I could have a reply to this and/or if it could be looked into.

As usual, thanks in advance for reply/ies.
Hi Uk,

I did a test. Signal 72 will not clear until Signal 83 clears in your situation. As a result, dropping S83 will result in a change of aspect in S7. Consequently an ACOA. But why S7 went back to red is something Clive will have to explain.

Add Edit: Signal 72 is approached controlled when Signal 83 has not cleared.

Barry
Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
Last edited: 20/01/2012 at 06:46 by BarryM
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Re: Recreate signal failure to check for bug? 20/01/2012 at 08:55 #27786
Stephen Fulcher
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2026 posts 		You can recreate the initial fault by using the "Lamp Proving" tick box in the Incident Panel for the signal that has failed. When it is unticked the signal will show blank on the panel, and setting all the same routes for a train in the same location. It will have to be a train though, as an incident panel occupied track circuit will not report an adverse change of aspect.

What you have described as the incident sounds like a bug in the sim. A driver will not be able to report an adverse change of aspect if the signal never cleared in the first place. All he will do is get on the signal post telephone to complain that he is standing at red signal x. However, if you pull a route in these circumstances, it is still likely to have to time out, even if the driver did not see any change.

My guess is the coding for that particular signal takes into account the routes set in the advance signals, rather than the aspect that the signal itself is showing.

In any case, Clive is the person who will understand.
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Re: Recreate signal failure to check for bug? 20/01/2012 at 10:44 #27797
kbarber
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1712 posts 		Just to add fuel to an interesting little fire, I believe the lamp proving circuits at Euston were "lamp or controls", meaning that - provided the failed signal should be showing better than red - the signal in rear of it would step up to yellow. (I once heard it said that this existed throughout the early WCML installations, such that it would be theoretically possible to have a yellow starter at Euston reading past black signals all the way to Manchester, but that's by the by.) If Clive's simulated that, it's possible there's interesting bits affecting the Euston starters which might go partway to explaining what's happened - albeit still not what ought to be I guess.
Last edited: 20/01/2012 at 10:44 by kbarber
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Re: Recreate signal failure to check for bug? 20/01/2012 at 13:57 #27807
mfcooper
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707 posts 		" said:
...provided the failed signal should be showing better than red - the signal in rear of it would step up to yellow...
And that is how it works at most of Victoria ASC. If the blank signal is meant to be showing a proceed aspect, then the signal in rear will show the most restrictive proceed aspect. If the blank signal is meant to be showing danger, then the signal in rear will show danger. This adhered to the "Group Standards" at the time to box was built, however new installations require the signal in rear to always show danger.
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Re: Recreate signal failure to check for bug? 20/01/2012 at 16:24 #27817
Stephen Fulcher
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2026 posts 		I am surprised that this has not been retrospectively altered, as the driver will have to stop at the blank signal anyway.
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Re: Recreate signal failure to check for bug? 20/01/2012 at 21:55 #27834
Firefly
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521 posts 		Quote:
I believe the lamp proving circuits at Euston were "lamp or controls", meaning that - provided the failed signal should be showing better than red
Quote:
I am surprised that this has not been retrospectively altered, as the driver will have to stop at the blank signal anyway.
Lamp or Controls was removed from Euston when it was resignalled in 2001. There's no point in modifying existing circuits as it does no harm, however it's not provided on new schemes (nor has it been for many years now.)

FF
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Re: Recreate signal failure to check for bug? 21/01/2012 at 00:26 #27842
UKTrainMan
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1803 posts 		Thanks for all the responses so far to this. I just want to start this reply by go over something I had missed out in my original post.

Since the lamp, which in hindsight was probably green, failed, I followed usual procedures to try to obtain an aspect from the signal. Dropping 83 got me a single yellow aspect from 72, but the ACOA must of occurred at 7 as the train hadn't departed yet.


I cannot recreate it using Lamp Proving via F11 as it was a lamp that failed, not the full signal (which that setting on F11 does - fails all lamps on that signal).
Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for.
Last edited: 21/01/2012 at 01:38 by UKTrainMan
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