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Westbury Fictional Timetable

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Westbury Fictional Timetable 27/02/2014 at 20:21 #56315
bandiez
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Hi guys

I just finished my first timetable. Its a fictional Westbury timetable (Westbury commuter hub) that I worked on while I finish the 2014 timetable. Hope you enjoy it. As it is my first timetable please give any advise on any areas you see need to be improved or any bugs. Thanks

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Westbury Fictional Timetable 27/02/2014 at 21:30 #56317
tjfrancis
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hi a try to play this tt but it not comeing up on the loader it is in the timetable folder of the loader
I am dyslexic so please consider this when reading my posts
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Westbury Fictional Timetable 27/02/2014 at 21:39 #56318
postal
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" said:
hi a try to play this tt but it not comeing up on the loader it is in the timetable folder of the loader
It needs to be in the Westbury sub-folder in the Timetables folder.

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
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Westbury Fictional Timetable 27/02/2014 at 21:47 #56319
tjfrancis
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it is in that folder
I am dyslexic so please consider this when reading my posts
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Westbury Fictional Timetable 28/02/2014 at 17:11 #56351
Lyn-Greenwood
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" said:
Hi guys

I just finished my first timetable. Its a fictional Westbury timetable (Westbury commuter hub) that I worked on while I finish the 2014 timetable. Hope you enjoy it. As it is my first timetable please give any advise on any areas you see need to be improved or any bugs. Thanks
Hi there, bandiez

I've just had a quick look at the TT_Analysis output prior to running the complete TT, and found the following:

1. 0C45 & 0S09 have some incorrect times (just typos).

2. 5S32 & 2S32 should use the same platform (P2).

3. 5N42 & 2N42 should be the same length (70m - 3-car 158).

4. 1W36 & 5W36 should use the same platform (P3, not P2).

I notice several trains (mostly 1Vxx) are not given platform nos. at Westbury. Is this deliberate or an oversight?

All the other warnings from the TT Analysis can just be ignored. The rest of the TT looks OK at a glance and I'm looking forward to running it from start to finish as Westbury is one of my favourite sims.

I hope you find this info useful.

Cheers,

Lyn Greenwood

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Westbury Fictional Timetable 28/02/2014 at 20:07 #56367
bandiez
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Thanks for that Lyn I will try and sort it out. The platforms are a bit of an oversight on my part. thanks for the feedback.
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Westbury Fictional Timetable 05/03/2014 at 13:04 #56564
maxand
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6U56, travelling down, enters Woodborough DGL. Its TT displays Woodborough East (Reverse), then finally Woodborough siding.

This is slightly trickier than it appears at first glance (for me, anyway). What looks like a siding to the east (left) of the DGL is only a spur with a buffer stop (marked as a rectangular grey block across the tracks) at its end. The real siding comes off the UGL and can only be entered by activating the Woodborough lever frame. To get there you first have to reverse the train from the DGL back along the Up Main (which is the "reverse" stop), then reverse it again to enter the UGL.

To complicate matters, although the siding is clearly seen branching off the UGL, the only route that can be set is to the LOS along the UGL. Magically, the train disappears automatically after entering the UGL, and the Train List confirms it has stopped at the siding (before it disappears).

This is misleading to me. It would seem better for the train not to appear at all on the UGL (since this isn't mentioned as a stop in the timetable), but to be able to set a route from R500, via the very short segment at the LH end of the UGL, directly to the grey arrow marking the siding entry.

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Westbury Fictional Timetable 05/03/2014 at 13:57 #56565
sloppyjag
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" said:
6U56, travelling down, enters Woodborough DGL. Its TT displays Woodborough East (Reverse), then finally Woodborough siding.


This is misleading to me. It would seem better for the train not to appear at all on the UGL (since this isn't mentioned as a stop in the timetable), but to be able to set a route from R500, via the very short segment at the LH end of the UGL, directly to the grey arrow marking the siding entry.
Is there a big magic crane which lifts the train over the UGL and into the siding? The train has to travel through the UGL to reach the siding.

Planotransitophobic!
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Westbury Fictional Timetable 05/03/2014 at 17:11 #56576
Steamer
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" said:

This is misleading to me. It would seem better for the train not to appear at all on the UGL (since this isn't mentioned as a stop in the timetable), but to be able to set a route from R500, via the very short segment at the LH end of the UGL, directly to the grey arrow marking the siding entry.
You can set a route to the siding entry. When the train is at R500, unlock the Ground Frame, tick the Annett Key release, and pull levers 1 and 2. Then, set thr route into the siding. Note that the whole UGL will turn white- this is because there is only 1 track circuit between R821 and the LOS. The train will then enter the UGL, and proceed a short way along it until it enters the siding. The track circuit will show as occupied until the train fully enters the siding.

I can understand why you'd only expect the route to light up as far as the siding entry points, however that would require an extra track circuit in the loop, and probably a siding exit signal. Adding equipment (signals, TCs etc.) requires more design time and more relays, both of which cost money. Since this siding is used rarely (if at all) in real life (this is a fictional TT), a ground frame was provided instead, which would've been cheaper than fully signalling the routes in and out of the siding.

"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
Last edited: 05/03/2014 at 17:11 by Steamer
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Westbury Fictional Timetable 06/03/2014 at 08:32 #56604
maxand
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Quote:
Is there a big magic crane which lifts the train over the UGL and into the siding? The train has to travel through the UGL to reach the siding.
Well, compared with the Up and Down yards/sidings around Westbury itself which are so logically depicted, the Woodborough siding looks pretty rough by comparison; the siding lines aren't even touching the UGL, there are no points (only a ground frame) so it's not clear at first glance that one has to set a route through the UGL in order to reach the siding. It finally makes sense and I thank Steamer for taking the trouble to answer this one clearly.

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Westbury Fictional Timetable 06/03/2014 at 13:05 #56614
sloppyjag
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My apologies for not giving you a full spoon-fed response. My response that the train has to travel through the UGL to reach the siding was factually correct. Given that the principles of ground frame operations were explained to you in this thread I presumed (silly me!) that you didn't need this explained again.

In future, if I respond to one of your posts I will attempt to explain more fully.

P.S. This is what the real panel looks like. Not a great deal different from how it appears on SimSig.

Planotransitophobic!
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Westbury Fictional Timetable 06/03/2014 at 13:18 #56615
AndyG
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I suspect in reality the loco would have to run-round its train whilst in the DGL, then pull forward to east rev to propel into the sidings to keep the loco free to leave the wagons in the sidings.
I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either.
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Westbury Fictional Timetable 07/03/2014 at 09:56 #56658
maxand
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sloppyjag wrote:
Quote:
My apologies for not giving you a full spoon-fed response. My response that the train has to travel through the UGL to reach the siding was factually correct. Given that the principles of ground frame operations were explained to you in this thread I presumed (silly me!) that you didn't need this explained again.
When I need sarcasm, I'll ask for it.

Although the principles of ground frame operation were explained in the post you referred to (Beechgrove Siding), the issue here is not the operation of the ground frame but the schema of the siding. In fact, the SimSig view differs considerably from the actual panel view (thanks for the pic):





In SimSig, setting a route from R500 to the siding (grey arrow) results only in the UGL lighting up as far as the LOS signal. In reality, setting the same route to the yellow exit button (marked 1) ought to illuminate the dedicated track section (marked 2) as well as the UGL. This section is missing from SimSig. Thus I find the real life panel display much more intelligible, raising doubts about historical accuracy about which so much noise has been made.

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Westbury Fictional Timetable 07/03/2014 at 18:02 #56670
sloppyjag
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No need to ask, I have plenty in supply!

How do you know that setting a route to the UGL doesn't also light up the wee extra bit to the siding? Is it part of the same circuit? Has it been left out for simplicity sake? Does it really matter that much given it's a rarely used siding?

Perhaps the developer should drop everything he/she is doing and address this issue pronto! [/sarcasm]

Planotransitophobic!
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Westbury Fictional Timetable 07/03/2014 at 18:19 #56671
Peter Bennet
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A number of people have dabbled with this sim over the years so it's difficult to keep tabs on what's what. However, having seen the panel photo I now know how it should (probably) be coded. I'll look into this one day and update.

Peter

I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
Last edited: 07/03/2014 at 18:19 by Peter Bennet
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Westbury Fictional Timetable 07/03/2014 at 18:38 #56672
TomOF
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Reading PSB closed some time back and I'm not 100% sure it's replacement locks the track in an identical manner.
There are still enough ex Reading signallers kicking about who could probably confirm exactly how it looked.

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Westbury Fictional Timetable 07/03/2014 at 19:19 #56674
JamesN
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" said:
sloppyjag wrote:
Quote:
My apologies for not giving you a full spoon-fed response. My response that the train has to travel through the UGL to reach the siding was factually correct. Given that the principles of ground frame operations were explained to you in this thread I presumed (silly me!) that you didn't need this explained again.
When I need sarcasm, I'll ask for it.

Although the principles of ground frame operation were explained in the post you referred to (Beechgrove Siding), the issue here is not the operation of the ground frame but the schema of the siding. In fact, the SimSig view differs considerably from the actual panel view (thanks for the pic):





In SimSig, setting a route from R500 to the siding (grey arrow) results only in the UGL lighting up as far as the LOS signal. In reality, setting the same route to the yellow exit button (marked 1) ought to illuminate the dedicated track section (marked 2) as well as the UGL. This section is missing from SimSig. Thus I find the real life panel display much more intelligible, raising doubts about historical accuracy about which so much noise has been made.
If it's anything like similar setups on other WR panels, then both the Sdg and Loop part of the TC will flood when either route is set or the TC occupied. I foget the exact technical details, (Mr Fulcher your input?) but as I understand it (in simple terms) the decision to light one bit of the route lights or the other depnds on the points being proved Normal or Reverse - as it's a GF the panel has no way of knowing which bit to light as it doesn't know how the points are behaving.

The operation of the sim is correct - Key to relese frame, swing points, 'slot' the route, then set the route into the Siding. The display is slightly off but it's only a minor thing.

Hope this clears up your understanding Max.

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Westbury Fictional Timetable 07/03/2014 at 23:21 #56685
maxand
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JamesN wrote:
Quote:
If it's anything like similar setups on other WR panels, then both the Sdg and Loop part of the TC will flood when either (my emphasis) route is set or the TC occupied.
Thanks James, I didn't realize this was the case. It just seemed that from first principles one would expect the Loop to light if the LOS button is pressed (route set into UGL only), and both the Loop and Siding sections to light if the siding button is pressed (route set into siding) - otherwise, why need two buttons?

The finer details shouldn't really matter. What does matter is that SimSig should adopt a consistent display approach to siding entries across all its sims (I haven't checked the Wiki to see if there is a Sidings page), and that where exceptions arise to this they should be clearly documented in the respective Sim manual, or a list of variations included on the Sidings page, to reduce the angst associated with this.

I haver never had problems getting trains in or out of the Up/Down sidings associated with Westbury itself, because a short TC into the non-controlled siding always lights up when the grey arrow is clicked. It would be nice to see this applied to all sidings and should not require much extra coding. Thanks Peter Bennet for offering to look into this minor but helpful feature at the next update.

Last edited: 07/03/2014 at 23:22 by maxand
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Westbury Fictional Timetable 07/03/2014 at 23:55 #56686
Steamer
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maxand said:

I haver never had problems getting trains in or out of the Up/Down sidings associated with Westbury itself, because a short TC into the non-controlled siding always lights up when the grey arrow is clicked. It would be nice to see this applied to all sidings and should not require much extra coding.
It is applied to sidings, where TCs are provided in real life. Sidings controlled from ground frames do not have this luxury for the reasons stated in above posts. Just add a sticky note to the siding when you get the 'train entering' phone call and remove it when the frame has been operated to get the train out of the siding.

"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Westbury Fictional Timetable 08/03/2014 at 00:11 #56687
Late Turn
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" said:
If it's anything like similar setups on other WR panels, then both the Sdg and Loop part of the TC will flood when either route is set or the TC occupied. I foget the exact technical details, (Mr Fulcher your input?) but as I understand it (in simple terms) the decision to light one bit of the route lights or the other depnds on the points being proved Normal or Reverse - as it's a GF the panel has no way of knowing which bit to light as it doesn't know how the points are behaving.

Generally, as you probably know, an occupied TC will 'flood' if there's no route set through it, irrespective of the setting of points: in this case, the points are surely proved reverse by the fact that the slot from the GF is off? That said, we have a similar setup, but between two running lines rather than into a siding (the route is set from the panel, but the crossover is worked from the ground frame): the crossover is shown as non-TC'd on the panel, but the route lights only extend as far as the crossover. It's so infrequently used that I couldn't say what happens when a train occupies the TC in those circumstances though! Given that an additional TC indication is provided at the siding connection at Woodborough, I'd be surprised if the route lights (and subsequent TC occupation) flooded with a route set into the siding.

Max: the railway (over here at least!) really doesn't do consistent - it's not Simsig's fault!

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Westbury Fictional Timetable 08/03/2014 at 01:38 #56692
maxand
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Late Turn, sorry to display my ignorance again, but would you mind explaining what you mean by "flooding"? Does flooding occur irrespective of whether a route has been set into the UGL?

Steamer wrote earlier:
Quote:
Sidings controlled from ground frames do not have this luxury (entry TCs) for the reasons stated in above posts. Just add a sticky note to the siding when you get the 'train entering' phone call and remove it when the frame has been operated to get the train out of the siding.
An interesting suggestion; however, I can't see how this would help me. If you mean using a sticky note to remind me I have accepted a train coming out of a GF siding to enter controlled track such as a loop, my method would be to display the GF immediately I accepted the train, set it to accept the train from the shunter and set the loop route so that when the train enters, its TC lights up and its headcode is seen at the next signal. Finally close the GF, assuming that the train is long enough to fit comfortably in the siding once it has stopped at the far signal.

The only time I might need to create a sticky (which I find very useful) is to save the train's headcode so I can click it to view its TT before it enters my area.

If you mean using a sticky note in the reverse direction to remind me to use the GF to get the train out of the loop into the siding, my method would again be to operate the GF as above, whereupon in the absence of a dedicated siding entry TC, the loop TC would light up (red) when the train entered the loop, then clear when the train was in the siding. Additionally the train list would briefly tell me that the train had now reached the siding before the train disappears from the list.

Apologies for sounding pedantic and going into minute detail again, but spelling it out in this way is my style as I'm sure you've noticed before!

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Westbury Fictional Timetable 08/03/2014 at 02:41 #56696
Late Turn
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" said:
Late Turn, sorry to display my ignorance again, but would you mind explaining what you mean by "flooding"? Does flooding occur irrespective of whether a route has been set into the UGL?

Apologies, thought (wrongly!) that had been covered in earlier posts. Normally, as you know, the route lights (white) or 'occupied' indication (red) will only be shown on the portions of a track circuit through which the route is set; the other portions of the track circuit will remain grey. If a TC is occupied with no route set, though, every portion of that track circuit will show red ('flooding'- try setting the route manually through a complex junction (clicking on individual points to set them) and talking a train past the protecting signal at danger, which should demonstrate it nicely!

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Westbury Fictional Timetable 08/03/2014 at 08:07 #56708
Peter Bennet
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" said:

If it's anything like similar setups on other WR panels, then both the Sdg and Loop part of the TC will flood when either route is set or the TC occupied. I foget the exact technical details, (Mr Fulcher your input?) but as I understand it (in simple terms) the decision to light one bit of the route lights or the other depnds on the points being proved Normal or Reverse - as it's a GF the panel has no way of knowing which bit to light as it doesn't know how the points are behaving.

The operation of the sim is correct - Key to relese frame, swing points, 'slot' the route, then set the route into the Siding. The display is slightly off but it's only a minor thing.
Seems a bit convoluted, the person on the ground does all then GF stuff, then the signaller sets a route. In other cases I have it's been the signaller releases the GF by setting the route then the GF operator does his stuff with the frame.

Peter

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Westbury Fictional Timetable 08/03/2014 at 09:22 #56711
Late Turn
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The convoluted method of working is probably, I'd guess, as a result of the proximity of the ground frame to pointwork controlled from the box - the signal reading through the latter leads straight onto the former, so a slot on the signal is a far safer option than expecting the driver to stop halfway through the pointwork for a handsignal. Same applies to my (non-WR) example above.
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Westbury Fictional Timetable 08/03/2014 at 11:16 #56716
kbarber
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" said:

The finer details shouldn't really matter. What does matter is that SimSig should adopt a consistent display approach to siding entries across all its sims (I haven't checked the Wiki to see if there is a Sidings page), and that where exceptions arise to this they should be clearly documented in the respective Sim manual, or a list of variations included on the Sidings page, to reduce the angst associated with this.

Yet again, Max, this is a question of what's there in real life - and that the real life arrangements changed enormously over the years as signalling principles evolved, ways of wiring interlockings developed and organisations implemented their own particular interpretations and views.

An example from mechanical technology... not comprehensive and possibly with some details incorrect but generally accurate enough to illustrate the idea.

Shunt signals through points and crossovers:
Some railways (notably the London & North Western and the Midland) were extremely parsimonious in this regard, at least in their early days; they took the view that as shunts happened close to a signalbox and under the eye of the signalman, they could be controlled by handsignals alone. Shunting signals would be provided only where absolutely becessary.
Other railways saw rather more of a need for signals and so started the development of the disc signal. Initially it was, basically, a points indicator; it was worked directly from the points operating rod and changed in sympathy (one hoped) with the points themselves.
A major defect was that it then relied on the signalman (or shunter) to actually authorise the movement to commence, so little or nothing was gained. That led to the idea of the 'independent point disc': a signal of the same type but worked from a separate lever. Now the signalman could partially set up the route at any time but the movement couldn't start until the signal the train stood at was cleared.
However, many early interlocking mechanisms didn't allow conditional locking (an 'OR' function). That meant a disc couldn't read two ways. The Great Western Railway (that I know of, others may have done something similar) overcame that by using a white light for the normal aspect of a disc; the rule was that a white light disc could be passed at danger provided it could be seen that a signal further ahead (which could itself be a disc, of course) had been cleared for the movement. (It may be that other railways relied on drivers' and shunters' local knowledge to tell them what disc signals could (should) be passed at danger under those circumstances; anyone who knows please confirm or otherwise.)
That was all very well but it wasn't entirely satisfactory. For one thing, difficult conditions (fog, perhaps) might give a greenish tinge to a white light in the distance. It also meant the first set(s) of points the movement passed over weren't locked in any way... nothing to stop the signalman pulling them in error with the train on them.
There came a point where companies started building larger signalboxes (the LNWR was particularly notable) and providing multi-armed shunt signals; one disc per route could be locked conventionally without conditional locking. Stacked discs went as much as four-high (certainly the LNWR had some of those) and of course a disc might read to another stack of discs. Boxes of over 100 levers were quite common (often 2 or 3 at a single large station), with all the activity you'd expect.
When Stevens allowed the patent on tappet locking to lapse, conditional locking became available. So now it was possible to have just one disc at each set of points (visually like the original GWR independent discs) but having all to be obeyed - it was no longer permissible to 'read through' and accept a signal in advance as authority for a movement. These discs had a red light for the danger indication.
Meanwhile, in an attempt to increase safety, some companies started to install what's known as 'rotation locking'. In short, once a signal has been cleared a train is assumed to be occupying the section of track it reads to and the interlocking will not allow it to be cleared a second time until another signal (that would allow that train to proceed out of that section) has itself been cleared and replaced. It gave more-or-less equivalent protection to a track circuit, but it did mean that shunting signals have to be provided for all moves. The Midland Railway used quite a bit of rotation locking and that meant a sudden profusion of discs on their lines, in contrast to the former lack. (There was another effect as well. The Midland used 'catch handle' locking, rather than 'lever' locking - the interlocking both held the catch handle down to prevent the lever being pulled and was driven by the movement of the catch handle rather than the lever. Simply pulling the catch handle would start the rotation locking, before ever the lever moved an inch. I'm told that grabbing a wrong 'un could lead to an interesting spectacle of signals being pulled and replaced as the imaginary train was shunted all around the station until it could be got rid of into a siding!)

And that's before we get on to the development of the position light shunt signal!

What makes this relevant is that signalling equipment can have have rather a long life. And it is the practice to leave old equipment in use until it needs replacing, either because of life-expiry or for some kind of remodelling of a layout. Even where a station is remodelled, only those functions that need altering will be changed unless the lever frame itself is replaced, in which case contemporary standards will probably be applied throughout. Therefore it's possible to find not just adjacent boxes but even signals within the same box that were installed to quite different standards and worked to quite different rules. (That could well imply a 'white light' disc reading to a multi-route 'red light' disc, or to a stack, if a bit of tappet locking had been added to - say - a GWR twist frame.)

As Late Turn says, the close proximity of GF-controlled and directly-worked points probably makes a difference too. In this case they are at least facing to the shunt back move, so I suspect he is right that a slot is the way forward. If the points in the siding were trailing to movements shunting back into the siding, it could be a whole lot more complicated. Again, such issues weren't unknown in mechanical days. Mill Hill, on the Midland Railway line into St Pancras, was a case in point.

Mill Hill was a real peculiarity. It was in the middle of a 4-track line, with the slow lines on the up (eastern) side of the box and the fast lines on the down side. The only connection between the two sets of lines was a middle siding, with two sets of connections from the slow lines and a single crossover trailing out of the up fast. What made it very distinctive is that there were two completely separate lever frames: at the London end was the 16-lever fast line frame, facing west, while the 20-lever slow lines frame faced east beyond it! There was no direct connection between the two frames. (I don't even know if they had the same kind of interlocking. Certainly the fast lines were very sparsely povided with shunt signals, whereas the slow lines had a great profusion, so I suspect the slows may have had rotation locking while the fasts didn't.) But I digress. The crossover from the fast line entered the middle siding just a few yards from one of the slow line connections, such that if the slow line points were reversed they would be 'run through' if even a light engine tried to come in from the fast line. So to protect them the connections to the fast line points incorporated a bolt lock on the slow line points - there was a device in the point rodding so the slow line points couldn't be pulled if the fast line points were reversed (and vice versa, of course). Even more necessary in that there was no disc to come back into the middle road from the fast line!

That kind of inconsistency is one of the things that - to me anyway - makes even modern signalling interesting (and the older kind absolutely endlessly fascinating).

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