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What has driven you absolutely crazy?

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What has driven you absolutely crazy? 01/08/2014 at 21:41 #63407
Underwood
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Hello,

Post your rants here! Have you ever had a crazy moment, so big you were tempted to, or did, start over again or maybe you got in a big mess and spent hours fixing it, maybe other things didn't go to plan? I'd like to hear some timetable creating stories that went wrong.

I've had alot over the past, especially with fictional timetables. They sound so easy to do, just make your own services. Bristol was a nightmare for this, you could have something stupid like a 2 hourly XC service, and you'd STILL manage to slam into a Severn Beach service, which then you'd find a Weston local in the way, and nothing can be re-timed as you just screwed it all up

I've been having problems with Wembley too, usually I can get away without a platform workbook. Might not be the same platforms they'd use but it usually works especially when you know what ones they tend to use. For Euston, this should be easy....SOMEHOW I needed MORE platforms built at Euston as I couldn't fit any more pendo's in, the ones in the platform have 40-50 turnarounds. I had to re-work the whole diagramming to narrow it down and it worked, apart from the fact I missed one service out and had to do the whole thing again, tearing all my figgin hair out, and a good 1hr 30mins faffing, then I finally fixed it...only to find one inbound train is referenced to two outbounds....OH MY GOD! :doh :doh :doh ARGH!!

One day it will work, I'm half tempted to delete the second outbound train it references and forget it existed lol!

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What has driven you absolutely crazy? 01/08/2014 at 22:08 #63408
Gwasanaethau
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Oh boy do I understand this! The single-track section between Cleethorpes and Grimsby Town on South Humberside is driving me up the wall. Most services fit (just about), but every now and then I end up with three services converging on the passing loop all at the same time, or somehow I end up with two services trying to pass at New Clee.

I have tried adjusting the times, but then I end up with too short a layover at Cleethorpes and the services do not restart in time for their departure, or, going the other way, the re-timed service then clogs up either Scunthorpe station or Gainsborough Trent Junction. So maddening! Still, it’s almost there…I hope!

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What has driven you absolutely crazy? 01/08/2014 at 22:49 #63410
JamesN
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I'd like to take this moment to express my utter disdain at whomever was in charge of diagramming at SWT for the 15th October 2009.

That is all.

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What has driven you absolutely crazy? 01/08/2014 at 23:52 #63411
Underwood
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746 posts
" said:
Oh boy do I understand this! The single-track section between Cleethorpes and Grimsby Town on South Humberside is driving me up the wall. Most services fit (just about), but every now and then I end up with three services converging on the passing loop all at the same time, or somehow I end up with two services trying to pass at New Clee.

I have tried adjusting the times, but then I end up with too short a layover at Cleethorpes and the services do not restart in time for their departure, or, going the other way, the re-timed service then clogs up either Scunthorpe station or Gainsborough Trent Junction. So maddening! Still, it’s almost there…I hope!
Christ! Is that fictional too I take it? After trying fiction with Exeter, I soon learnt single lines and making your own timetable don't go together!

My Euston one is real, a 2012 timetable, but it really isn't making sense. I found the problem, they are sitting there longer as it's a bit out of place. Basically looking at the 390 diagrams, 1R01 does the 0743 ex-Euston, well in the 2012 period this doesn't exist, so it looks like it does the 0800 instead, which is what 1R02 does. 1R02 does what 1R03 would have done etc etc. I'm hoping it works, I can see me having one train terminating with nothing to do!

I'm already stumped with 1R18, as it's supposed to do 5R18 but August Excluded, nothing obvious of what it does instead, as there's no August Only service to follow!

" said:
I'd like to take this moment to express my utter disdain at whomever was in charge of diagramming at SWT for the 15th October 2009.

That is all.
I assume it made no sense at all?

You'd hope tools like this would help. We have Real Time Trains now, and even that can't help sometimes. I did look at the Birmingham New Street table once for when I get New Street sim, I wondered if RTT would be useful...hmmm...it's useful if you know what does what, which I can tell, but it's a mess, you can find 5 departures from one platform in a short time span with just one inbound working to do it all. Is there really a Voyager, 170, Pendolino, Voyager and another 170 in the same platform!? :laugh:

Not only that, but the Cross City services seem to plough through terminating services as well!

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What has driven you absolutely crazy? 02/08/2014 at 05:45 #63419
Meld
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1098 posts
" said:
" said:
Oh boy do I understand this! The single-track section between Cleethorpes and Grimsby Town on South Humberside is driving me up the wall. Most services fit (just about), but every now and then I end up with three services converging on the passing loop all at the same time, or somehow I end up with two services trying to pass at New Clee.

I have tried adjusting the times, but then I end up with too short a layover at Cleethorpes and the services do not restart in time for their departure, or, going the other way, the re-timed service then clogs up either Scunthorpe station or Gainsborough Trent Junction. So maddening! Still, it’s almost there…I hope!
Christ! Is that fictional too I take it? After trying fiction with Exeter, I soon learnt single lines and making your own timetable don't go together!

My Euston one is real, a 2012 timetable, but it really isn't making sense. I found the problem, they are sitting there longer as it's a bit out of place. Basically looking at the 390 diagrams, 1R01 does the 0743 ex-Euston, well in the 2012 period this doesn't exist, so it looks like it does the 0800 instead, which is what 1R02 does. 1R02 does what 1R03 would have done etc etc. I'm hoping it works, I can see me having one train terminating with nothing to do!

I'm already stumped with 1R18, as it's supposed to do 5R18 but August Excluded, nothing obvious of what it does instead, as there's no August Only service to follow!

" said:
I'd like to take this moment to express my utter disdain at whomever was in charge of diagramming at SWT for the 15th October 2009.

That is all.
I assume it made no sense at all?

You'd hope tools like this would help. We have Real Time Trains now, and even that can't help sometimes. I did look at the Birmingham New Street table once for when I get New Street sim, I wondered if RTT would be useful...hmmm...it's useful if you know what does what, which I can tell, but it's a mess, you can find 5 departures from one platform in a short time span with just one inbound working to do it all. Is there really a Voyager, 170, Pendolino, Voyager and another 170 in the same platform!? :laugh:

Not only that, but the Cross City services seem to plough through terminating services as well!
Underwood- platforming on RTT can be a nightmare - I've found the best way to use RTT for this to work, is to to go forward 7 days and copy an paste into an excel sheet or similar, as platform allocations in that days workings are still untouched by the operating/regulatory decisions made on the day your creating.

Passed the age to be doing 'Spoon Feeding' !!!
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What has driven you absolutely crazy? 02/08/2014 at 08:42 #63424
Underwood
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Thanks for the tip Meld

I was unaware of this, only because I tried it once and didn't really work however this was for a Sunday engineering day, and up until the day itself, 98% of all Southern services were 'booked' into Victoria P12! I'd imagine on alterations this would usually happens, just allocate them into one platform then release the plan the day before?

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What has driven you absolutely crazy? 02/08/2014 at 09:06 #63428
TimTamToe
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654 posts
" said:
Hello,

Post your rants here! Have you ever had a crazy moment, so big you were tempted to, or did, start over again or maybe you got in a big mess and spent hours fixing it, maybe other things didn't go to plan? I'd like to hear some timetable creating stories that went wrong.
Jumping from writing TTs for Brighton to Vic Central...not one small leap for man that one lol. Especially when you do some using a mix of wrong diagrams - although I did sort of pre-empt the 460s to 458s when I ended up needing to split one on the GatExs :whistle: I think we both now know why you concentrated on Eastern first James!

Gareth

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What has driven you absolutely crazy? 02/08/2014 at 09:10 #63429
58050
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My biggest problem recently was & to a degree still is a problem & that's attempting to balance MGR workings on one of the timetables I've been working on for the past 6 months. Can't really go into details as the sim it is being written for hasn't been released yet. I've got alot of info from ex railway colleagues & other things I've collected since leaving the railway industry, but I'm no where near having it 100%. At present I'd say I was about 60-70% there. The problem in creating non fictional, but heritage timetables is that you need as much info you can get from the period you are covering in the timetable & as time goes on it gets more & more difficult. That said there are occasions where you come across items that you never even knew existed. About 3 weeks ago I went to see someone I got to know who sells railway memorabilia on e-bay. He invited me to his house to go through a garage full of boxes of stuff he hadn't even gone through to put on e-bay yet, in return I have him 49 pack of negatives of all the railway photos I'd taken since the mid 1980s for him to sell on e-bay. One item I found was a 1987 Western Region trip Notice which covered every single Western Region depot with the exception of Westbury. Now I'd never seen a Western Region Trip Notice anywhere during my 20+ years on the railway or even on e-bay, so for me that was a massive find. But it gets very frustrating trying to piece things together just to make a timetable right. 14 days to timetable & balance MGR workings & I'm still not 100% happy with it. I've lost count how many sheets of paper I've written the Up & Down trains on & to try & get them to balance. Here's to the next couple of months of solving the last remaining bits.
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What has driven you absolutely crazy? 02/08/2014 at 12:31 #63447
J5flyer
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48 posts
Hello,

Quote:
this was for a Sunday engineering day, and up until the day itself, 98% of all Southern services were 'booked' into Victoria P12! I'd imagine on alterations this would usually happens, just allocate them into one platform then release the plan the day before?
At Southern the 'timers' don't deal with platforming at certain locations such as Victoria, so when timing trains any platform is entered (or left blank - in which case Network Rail's system will sometimes automatically allocate a default one during validation which is ignored) and then a seperate platforms team within the planning department will work out the platforms for the entire day/week for the simplifiers, which are normally sent out at some point during the week leading up to the week in question, which hopefully explains why you encountered the above!

It also means that sites such as Open Train Times are probably innacurate as far as platform numbers go at certain locations where loads of alterations have been made.

James

Last edited: 02/08/2014 at 12:36 by J5flyer
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What has driven you absolutely crazy? 02/08/2014 at 13:38 #63449
Steamer
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Obvious question time... if the timers don't deal with the platforms, how do they make sure they don't timetable something that's impossible to platform?
"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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What has driven you absolutely crazy? 02/08/2014 at 15:17 #63451
J5flyer
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The timings team still need to do a platform graph for the standard hour to make sure the plan works, and before that happens a specification is drawn up which takes services out so only so many per hour are going down any stretch of line with any blocks, so it should work (or be able to made work). More often than not it is noticed by the timers if it looks like it will not work and they quite often will check if that is the case and make the necessary changes to the service way before it reaches the dedicated platform team, who work out the actual (and hopefully more efficient!) final assignments. Normally it is a case of a few minutes adjusted here and there to arrival times etc to make platforms work, nothing major.

The point being is that when the alterations are submitted and uploaded, the platforming at places such as large terminals are not necessarily correct. At that stage, it is normally just done on paper just to prove it works in-house, but then the platform numbers can obviously all be altered later and are published to the relevant parties.

The way it's done is different from company to company though, I just mention Southern as the original post I was replying to was talking about Victoria Central specifically and the odd platforming he came across when looking at the Southern schedules.

James

Last edited: 02/08/2014 at 15:32 by J5flyer
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What has driven you absolutely crazy? 02/08/2014 at 16:08 #63454
Sacro
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" said:
Obvious question time... if the timers don't deal with the platforms, how do they make sure they don't timetable something that's impossible to platform?
Where does it say they do?

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What has driven you absolutely crazy? 03/08/2014 at 13:30 #63477
IrishDave
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51 posts
Getting back to the topic of the thread...

" said:
You'd hope tools like this would help. We have Real Time Trains now, and even that can't help sometimes. I did look at the Birmingham New Street table once for when I get New Street sim, I wondered if RTT would be useful...hmmm...it's useful if you know what does what, which I can tell, but it's a mess, you can find 5 departures from one platform in a short time span with just one inbound working to do it all. Is there really a Voyager, 170, Pendolino, Voyager and another 170 in the same platform!? :laugh:

Not only that, but the Cross City services seem to plough through terminating services as well!
Ah, platforming at New Street... *shudders*

I was involved in testing New Street, and in particular in creating the default 15th October 2009 timetable. Once Ben had generated the timetable with the bare schedules in it, I took on the task of putting in all the next workings, joins, divides, and checking the platforming worked. We were able to find all the diagram information, so that wasn't a problem; the only thing left was platform conflicts.

Surprisingly the platforms in the WTT for New Street for the era in question work, by and large, and between start of service and 8pm I only had to make a handful of platform alterations to avoid clashes. But then 2N21 comes in at 20:31 and sits for 45 minutes to join 2A30 and toodle off to Soho depot at 21:16. Never mind the fact that they're booked in different platforms(!), you've then got a Derby side platform blocked for 45 minutes when you're not expecting it - and the other trains don't seem to be expecting it either! In fact, from 8pm onwards there are conflicts all over the shop.

Now, some of my fellow timetablers would have just left it like that - if the timetable's wrong then the timetable's wrong, and the signaller has to deal with it in real life. But my logic is that the signaller would, at the very least, have a simplifier that wouldn't put two halves of a joining train into two different platforms. And once I'd decided that joining trains should have their platforms "fixed", I thought it better to go the whole hog and try and remove *all* the conflicts.

The way I achieved this was to take the timetable and play it through to a point at which I went "oh bother, that doesn't work" (well, actually it was usually rather more coarse than that...), figure out what I should have done ten minutes ago to not get myself into this mess, roll back to an earlier snapshot, and try again. In one case I got to about 10pm and realised that I needed to swap 10 and 11 and do a three-way permutation of 5, 6 and 7, and that to achieve that I had to roll back over an hour...

Suffice it to say that I've personally played through the entire New Street timetable on my own about a dozen times, most of it on double speed, and I will happily buy a pint for anyone who can find a platform conflict remaining in the released (15th October 2009 v4.1) timetable.

The thing is that having tested it so much I'm now pretty well sick of the sight of New Street, which is a shame given it's easily my favourite sim... All we need is another timetable for New Street that I don't know inside out - then someone else can be driven absolutely crazy trying to get that one right! :-D

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