New Layout 2013 missing Hertford Loop Signalling.

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New Layout 2013 missing Hertford Loop Signalling. 03/10/2014 at 03:35 #64838
CTCThiago
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Hello Again Simsig Dev. Team,

Just a question out of curiosity again (sorry to be annoying).

Why the new signalling between Langley South Jn and Hertford North (WestLock Interlocking) is not present on the new layout, and the flyover at Hitchin is?

As per NR documents:

Click here

The installation of HL Signalling started at May 2013, (not sure when finished) and the Hitchin Flyover was ready at 25 June 2013.

Regards,
Thiago.

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New Layout 2013 missing Hertford Loop Signalling. 03/10/2014 at 10:10 #64839
Muzer
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Isn't the new signalling only "normally" useful when the ERTMS test train is running? I suppose during failures it could also be useful to have bidirectional signalling. However, the Hitchin Flyover might be necessary to make future timetables work. I'd guess this is the reason.
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New Layout 2013 missing Hertford Loop Signalling. 05/10/2014 at 01:13 #64872
ajax103
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" said:
Isn't the new signalling only "normally" useful when the ERTMS test train is running? I suppose during failures it could also be useful to have bidirectional signalling. However, the Hitchin Flyover might be necessary to make future timetables work. I'd guess this is the reason.
To answer your answer, it's a yes and no answer...

Yes the Bi Directional signalling is generally meant to be use when the Down Hertford between Molewood Jcn and Bragley End Jcn is being used by Network Rail for ERTMS testing purposes but No it's not just capable for that purpose alone.

It has been used a number of times during disruption and during normal service by the signaller to regulate services between Stevenage and Hertford North for example once he had a stopper and a freight both head north at same time with one using the Down Hertford and the other using the Up Hertford, this was done to get the Freight in front of the Stopper.

As to the signalling entering full service, it did this in April 2013 over the Easter Period.

IMO the flyover shouldn't have been added without the new signalling layout between Hertford North and Stevenage but hopefully the author might be able to release a update to allow this....

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New Layout 2013 missing Hertford Loop Signalling. 05/10/2014 at 10:08 #64875
headshot119
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The flyover is "critical" to any new modern timetable, the bidi signalling is not. If the data was not available (I'm not sure if it was or not) would you rather the flyover had been left out completely?
"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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New Layout 2013 missing Hertford Loop Signalling. 05/10/2014 at 11:24 #64876
Muzer
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" said:
" said:
Isn't the new signalling only "normally" useful when the ERTMS test train is running? I suppose during failures it could also be useful to have bidirectional signalling. However, the Hitchin Flyover might be necessary to make future timetables work. I'd guess this is the reason.
To answer your answer, it's a yes and no answer...

Yes the Bi Directional signalling is generally meant to be use when the Down Hertford between Molewood Jcn and Bragley End Jcn is being used by Network Rail for ERTMS testing purposes but No it's not just capable for that purpose alone.

It has been used a number of times during disruption and during normal service by the signaller to regulate services between Stevenage and Hertford North for example once he had a stopper and a freight both head north at same time with one using the Down Hertford and the other using the Up Hertford, this was done to get the Freight in front of the Stopper.

As to the signalling entering full service, it did this in April 2013 over the Easter Period.

IMO the flyover shouldn't have been added without the new signalling layout between Hertford North and Stevenage but hopefully the author might be able to release a update to allow this....
If that's your opinion, I expect you'll hate many other sims! Lots of sims have a whole load of anachronisms to allow for timetables from multiple eras without having to implement an "eras" option. It's quite a common thing in SimSig. If you don't like it, collar the flyover and pretend it isn't there ;)

(To be clear, I would certainly be in favour of a refresh with the new signalling if the data is available, but I don't think it's that important, especially compared to other sims)

Last edited: 05/10/2014 at 11:26 by Muzer
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New Layout 2013 missing Hertford Loop Signalling. 05/10/2014 at 11:56 #64877
metcontrol
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If I recall correctly, during testing, Geoff said that the flyover would be included (along with quite a few other modern-day adjustments) but the Hertford Loop signalling would not as this would require more of a re-write than time allowed.

Given the Loop signalling may not be the finished article (as it is under test) and given the flyover is here to stay, surely it is better to have the sim in its present state (and available - which if Geoff had done the re-write it may not have been re-released.) The flyover is used all-day long and is included as a fully operational part of the railway. The Loop signalling is only used during testing or very occasionally in the case of disruption.

There are things that could be argued are missing from the older era (Hitchin DMU sidings for one) but better to have what we have than nothing at all.

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New Layout 2013 missing Hertford Loop Signalling. 05/10/2014 at 12:18 #64878
John
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And surely Geoff's time is far better spent writing shiny new sims for us to enjoy, rather than updating existing sims with inconsequential embellishments.
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New Layout 2013 missing Hertford Loop Signalling. 08/10/2014 at 08:12 #64918
ajax103
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" said:
The Loop signalling is only used during testing or very occasionally in the case of disruption.
Not true, it's used to regulate services like freight ie permit these services to overtake stoppers between Hertford and Stevenage plus the bi directional was used on Sunday when a ECS from Hertford to Letchworth CS was signalled over the Up Hertford.

So you're very much mistaken in your view, sorry to tell you this.

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New Layout 2013 missing Hertford Loop Signalling. 08/10/2014 at 08:51 #64919
Prof Jolly
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" said:
" said:
The Loop signalling is only used during testing or very occasionally in the case of disruption.
Not true, it's used to regulate services like freight ie permit these services to overtake stoppers between Hertford and Stevenage plus the bi directional was used on Sunday when a ECS from Hertford to Letchworth CS was signalled over the Up Hertford.

So you're very much mistaken in your view, sorry to tell you this.
Are any of these moves timetabled moves?

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New Layout 2013 missing Hertford Loop Signalling. 08/10/2014 at 10:34 #64920
KymriskaDraken
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I thought that bi-directional signalling was for emergency use only, whereas reversible signalling can be used whenever required.
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New Layout 2013 missing Hertford Loop Signalling. 08/10/2014 at 12:18 #64921
metcontrol
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" said:
" said:
The Loop signalling is only used during testing or very occasionally in the case of disruption.
Not true, it's used to regulate services like freight ie permit these services to overtake stoppers between Hertford and Stevenage plus the bi directional was used on Sunday when a ECS from Hertford to Letchworth CS was signalled over the Up Hertford.

So you're very much mistaken in your view, sorry to tell you this.
As I understood it, the use of it to regulate freights is not exactly a daily occurance, and running an ECS "on Sunday" is also not that regular. I am a fairly regular traveller / viewer of the area and have yet to travel via the bi-di route. Therefore, in my view it is irregular so I stand by my original post. I wouldn't agree that I'm mistaken either - we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

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New Layout 2013 missing Hertford Loop Signalling. 08/10/2014 at 13:19 #64922
Late Turn
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Crossing a freight over to the Up to overtake a passenger between Hertford and Stevenage would absolutely hammer the latter - well over five minutes - I'd have thought. Do they really do that, when the freight would only incur a few minutes' extra delay trundling along behind the passenger as far as Hitchin?
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New Layout 2013 missing Hertford Loop Signalling. 08/10/2014 at 14:44 #64925
CTCThiago
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And i forget the new Crossover before Hertford North, allowing trains from London to arrive at platform 1.
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New Layout 2013 missing Hertford Loop Signalling. 26/08/2015 at 08:52 #75451
ajax103
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" said:
I thought that bi-directional signalling was for emergency use only, whereas reversible signalling can be used whenever required.
The BiDi can be used at any time, it's not just restricted to when NR have their pet Class 313 trundling around there.

Example depending on operational requirements it is used even when said test train is not running.

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New Layout 2013 missing Hertford Loop Signalling. 26/08/2015 at 09:01 #75455
Muzer
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SIMBIDs are the ones that are preferred only to be used in emergencies, I believe. This is because they don't have AWS and they don't have AWS suppression for signals in the opposite direction. It is still allowed to use them in passenger service where they're the best (safest/most reasonable) option to get around a fault, but it's generally not permitted to use them for regulation.

Other bidirectional signalling has no such general restrictions, though some of them still have local restrictions to prevent using them for regulation, for whatever reason.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, I am not an employee of the railway!

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New Layout 2013 missing Hertford Loop Signalling. 26/08/2015 at 16:28 #75457
Class 92
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" said:
SIMBIDs are the ones that are preferred only to be used in emergencies, I believe. This is because they don't have AWS and they don't have AWS suppression for signals in the opposite direction. It is still allowed to use them in passenger service where they're the best (safest/most reasonable) option to get around a fault, but it's generally not permitted to use them for regulation.

Other bidirectional signalling has no such general restrictions, though some of them still have local restrictions to prevent using them for regulation, for whatever reason.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, I am not an employee of the railway!
Is SIMBID what Crewe to Shrewsbury has?

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New Layout 2013 missing Hertford Loop Signalling. 26/08/2015 at 16:44 #75459
headshot119
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4869 posts
" said:
" said:
SIMBIDs are the ones that are preferred only to be used in emergencies, I believe. This is because they don't have AWS and they don't have AWS suppression for signals in the opposite direction. It is still allowed to use them in passenger service where they're the best (safest/most reasonable) option to get around a fault, but it's generally not permitted to use them for regulation.

Other bidirectional signalling has no such general restrictions, though some of them still have local restrictions to prevent using them for regulation, for whatever reason.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, I am not an employee of the railway!
Is SIMBID what Crewe to Shrewsbury has?
I thought that Crewe to Shrewsbury was fully bi-directionally signaled. However looking at the signalling plans I have it appears the wrong direction signals don't have AWS. Though saying that these plans haven't proved to 100% accurate anyway.

"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
Last edited: 26/08/2015 at 16:44 by headshot119
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New Layout 2013 missing Hertford Loop Signalling. 26/08/2015 at 17:46 #75465
Class 92
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359 posts
" said:
" said:
" said:
SIMBIDs are the ones that are preferred only to be used in emergencies, I believe. This is because they don't have AWS and they don't have AWS suppression for signals in the opposite direction. It is still allowed to use them in passenger service where they're the best (safest/most reasonable) option to get around a fault, but it's generally not permitted to use them for regulation.

Other bidirectional signalling has no such general restrictions, though some of them still have local restrictions to prevent using them for regulation, for whatever reason.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, I am not an employee of the railway!
Is SIMBID what Crewe to Shrewsbury has?
I thought that Crewe to Shrewsbury was fully bi-directionally signaled. However looking at the signalling plans I have it appears the wrong direction signals don't have AWS. Though saying that these plans haven't proved to 100% accurate anyway.
Only plans (fairly old plans) I can find of the resignalling of the line is this one here but that will most likely be out of date.

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New Layout 2013 missing Hertford Loop Signalling. 27/08/2015 at 06:13 #75474
clive
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" said:
" said:

I thought that Crewe to Shrewsbury was fully bi-directionally signaled. However looking at the signalling plans I have it appears the wrong direction signals don't have AWS. Though saying that these plans haven't proved to 100% accurate anyway.
Only plans (fairly old plans) I can find of the resignalling of the line is this one here but that will most likely be out of date.
A trick I've used before is to bring up Google Earth on maximum magnification and look for the AWS ramps.

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New Layout 2013 missing Hertford Loop Signalling. 27/08/2015 at 08:04 #75475
Danny252
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Assuming that their images have been updated since the resignalling, of course!
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