Hump Yard

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Hump Yard 30/01/2015 at 14:13 #68576
fabiolanzafame
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26 posts 		Good day, I have a question:
It's possible to simulate in SimSig in realistic way the functioning of hump yard? Thank.
Fabio Lanzafame
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Hump Yard 30/01/2015 at 15:07 #68578
Sacro
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1171 posts 		No, a 'train' with no power would not roll downhill.
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Hump Yard 30/01/2015 at 15:23 #68579
pedroathome
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890 posts 		While not realistic, could it not be set a power type, and a low speed limit? Could then have a very short detach time. Only issue with this would be an appropriate split location and joining location
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Hump Yard 30/01/2015 at 15:32 #68580
headshot119
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4869 posts 		" said:
No, a 'train' with no power would not roll downhill.
No need to take a hump with the question
"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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Hump Yard 30/01/2015 at 16:27 #68583
Danny252
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1461 posts 		" said:
Could then have a very short detach time. Only issue with this would be an appropriate split location and joining location
And someone willing to code in several dozen splits and joins at the same location...

Then there's also the fact that hump bowls aren't signalled (excluding the forwards/slow/stop/backwards signals often provided), so why one would ever appear in Simsig is beyond me!
Last edited: 30/01/2015 at 16:27 by Danny252
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Hump Yard 30/01/2015 at 17:12 #68584
kbarber
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1712 posts 		I think a yard is something totally different to a running lines signalling system; that applies whether it's a hump (with signals and with points worked from a control tower) or a flat yard (usually - in the UK at least - with hand points to each siding and signals only controlling the entrance/exit of the yard).

The task is completely different. A signalman's job is to operate whatever system exists for ensuring train separation, (usually) to keep trains running, to route them properly and to regulate traffic in accordance with whatever arrangements exist. A shunter or control tower operator, on the other hand, has the task of sorting incoming traffic (which in some cases may be pretty much in random order, in others with a degree of designation of portions) into appropriate sidings (either in random order or positioned in the siding to be part of the appropriate outgoing portion).

So, in order:

  1. Each train entering a yard sim would need a detailed formation (individual wagons or groups of wagons), rather than the overall formation (x * wagon type Y) that Simsig works with.

  2. As others have mentioned, you need to be able to uncouple instantaneously at any point in the train, designated in each case by the shunter.

  3. That needs to be done with the train on the move and the uncoupled cut then needs to run without power (gravity off the hump or momentum in a flat yard) until it comes to a stand - not always fully buffered up to other vehicles in the road.

  4. The SimSig timetable model would be barely usable for a hump and certainly worse than useless for a flat yard - the shunt engine makes repeated movements towards the sidings, stops then draws back until the coupled wagons are clear of the next set of points that need to be used, repeat until all wagons shunted, then go back for the next lot and repeat again.

  5. Every so often, depending whether a lot of wagons stopped short meaning there's a lot of wasted space, the shunt engine needs to run down a siding to push all the wagons together.

  6. Once trains have been formed, locos need to arrive from elsewhere - either on inward workings or from a local shed or holding sidings - to take newly marshalled trains away.



Of course, if anyone wanted to code up such a sim it might be possible to chain it to a SimSig sim. Then freights running in SimSig could be handed over to the yard, where a shunter could perform suitable magic on them before they emerged either as continuations of the inward workings or as entirely new trains.

It would need some amendments to the present SimSig core code so trains could run with specified wagons to specified destinations. SimSig itself doesn't need that information but it needs to be handed over to and from the yard ('from' becomes important if there's more than one yard in-sim, or in a chain).

I suspect the in-yard operations would need to completely ignore anything we already know from SimSig - it would make no sense at all, for instance, to shunt a train by going down an F2 list or a timetable in F4 and specifying where the divides were to occur. Siding occupation would need representing quite differently. (But there might be a need for some familiar-looking signals and point and signal controls. And some rather different points controls for sorting sidings.) There would need to be a way of keeping tabs on all wagons in the yard and of specifying which were to be sent on any given train (weight & length limits sometimes dictate leave-overs).

Be a good excuse for some new delay reasons too... realistic ones that come to mind are 'wagon derailed on points' and 'tapper attending to binding brakes' but 'shunters' card school' wouldn't be so far from the truth in certain cases . Then, in best SimSig tradition, such as: 'cold kettle in messroom (driver waiting brew)', 'broken shunter's pole', even 'staff attending to leaking beer wagon' .
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Hump Yard 30/01/2015 at 17:59 #68588
58050
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2650 posts
Online 		faiolanzme wrote:
Quote:
Good day, I have a question:
It's possible to simulate in SimSig in realistic way the functioning of hump yard? Thank.

Despite what most people have been answering on this thread I'd say the answer could be yes. But it wouldn't strictly be accurate as previously mentioned above. However you would only be able to simulate it on the handful of British Marshalling yards that pushed wagons over the hump using shunt locos. But where SimSig wouldn't be able to replicate that until such time as the 'Core Code' or whatever else needed be modified would be for the hump pilot locos to push the wagons over the hump & the wagons could roll on for a predetermined distancee in there respected Sdgs. Then detach & move back towards the Reception Line to attach to another rake of wagons. The last hump tower I went into was Bescot Down Tower in 2005 & the 2 panels sat opposite each other. The Network Rail signaller manned his panel & a member of the yard staff would operate the points/signals to advise the pilot driver to stop or push the wagons over the hump.
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Hump Yard 30/01/2015 at 20:46 #68594
fabiolanzafame
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26 posts 		Will be make a SimSig scenario where there is this function?
Fabio Lanzafame
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Hump Yard 30/01/2015 at 21:21 #68596
Steamer
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3923 posts
Online 		" said:
Will be make a SimSig scenario where there is this function?
To summarise what's been written above: Probably not, as the way SimSig handles trains and timetables isn't really designed to deal with individual wagons and divides on the move.
"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
Last edited: 30/01/2015 at 21:21 by Steamer
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Hump Yard 31/01/2015 at 09:45 #68604
Andrew G
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550 posts
Online 		Here is the Yard/Hump control panel (out of use) in Bescot Down Tower.
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Last edited: 31/01/2015 at 09:46 by Andrew G
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Hump Yard 31/01/2015 at 10:00 #68605
Peter Bennet
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5362 posts 		Ability to detach (slip coaches/bankers) on the move is a feature request (#22 on the developer/bug board).

Peter
I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
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Hump Yard 31/01/2015 at 10:53 #68609
fabiolanzafame
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26 posts 		What's the topic that you refer?
Fabio Lanzafame
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Hump Yard 31/01/2015 at 12:10 #68611
TomOF
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452 posts 		It's something I want to do which could potentially be added onto Carlisle along with another sim I have in long term planning.

But like any feature, if it's worth doing then it's worth doing properly and it's therefore worth the wait. B)
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Hump Yard 31/01/2015 at 19:22 #68624
DriverCurran
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683 posts 		No getting excited at all this 'shunt shunt shunt' talk Mr Noisy

Paul
You have to get a red before you can get any other colour
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Hump Yard 01/02/2015 at 19:40 #68638
Andrew G
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550 posts
Online 		" said:
It's something I want to do which could potentially be added onto Carlisle along with another sim I have in long term planning.

But like any feature, if it's worth doing then it's worth doing properly and it's therefore worth the wait. B)
While I'm not convinced about the need to simulate Hump Shunting I do think adding the signalling control panels from the Carlisle/Kingmoor Up & Down Towers will provide a new dimension to Carlisle. If it is considered I wonder if consideration can be given to developing it as a stand alone simulation (incorporating both Towers) which of course could still be chained to Carlisle. Controlling the whole Yard and the 3 main panels might be a bit too much for a solo player.

There are of course quite a few other major yards with Control Towers from this era - Bescot has been mentioned, Tyne Yard, Tees Yard and Millerhill all come to mind.

Volume 3 of a series of Signalling Books by the Friends of NRM has just been published and this is titled 'Freight Marshalling Yard Operation, Control and Signalling'. It might be of interest to those interested in this aspect.
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Hump Yard 01/02/2015 at 20:28 #68639
fabiolanzafame
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26 posts 		It possible to try to divide it into a new scenario? So It could be playalbe for a "solo" player.
Fabio Lanzafame
Last edited: 01/02/2015 at 20:29 by fabiolanzafame
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Hump Yard 01/02/2015 at 21:35 #68642
58050
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2650 posts
Online 		Other marshalling yards that had control towers are Whitemoor(not the Network rail yard of today, but the one before it), Toton, Tinsley, Temple Mills(East London).
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Hump Yard 01/02/2015 at 22:13 #68645
Ron_J
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329 posts 		" said:
Other marshalling yards that had control towers are Whitemoor(not the Network rail yard of today, but the one before it), Toton, Tinsley, Temple Mills(East London).

...and Perth New Yard.
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