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Weird routing at Swanley

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Weird routing at Swanley 01/02/2015 at 15:40 #68633
Southernrover
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Whilst playing Victoria East and allowing the ARS to manage the outlying areas of the sim I scanned along to the Swanley area and noticed this strange routing.
Freight 7O81 was running down fast through Swanley heading for the Otford line and the ARS routed the train first over onto the down slow then back onto the otford line.
Is this an actual route? If so what signal is displayed to the driver in the actual area?
I know that they get an M for the Otford line and C for the main down towards Rochester but what would be displayed in this instance?
Picture attached below.

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Weird routing at Swanley 01/02/2015 at 15:50 #68634
Noisynoel
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Hmm, I thought this got sorted while ago. I'll check back through the fault logging system and follow it up. I honestly can't remember if it is valid route or not.
Noisynoel
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Weird routing at Swanley 01/02/2015 at 23:33 #68651
kaiwhara
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" said:
Hmm, I thought this got sorted while ago. I'll check back through the fault logging system and follow it up. I honestly can't remember if it is valid route or not.
The former signaller in me suggests it doesn't look like it should be a valid route, nor does it look like there is any advantage to this...

Andrew

Sorry guys, I am in the business of making people wait!
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Weird routing at Swanley 01/02/2015 at 23:47 #68655
John
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That's a "wiggle" route, isn't it?


Geoff? in the sim manual said:
There are two routes from VS253 to VS301: one via the Down Chatham Fast (default; straight line); the other via the Chatham Slow Lines (wiggle)

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Weird routing at Swanley 01/02/2015 at 23:59 #68656
kaiwhara
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Okay so it might be legit, but I'm still left here pondering what the point is. Especially given you can do the Scenic Detour from 253 - 301, but not from 300 to 250. If you are going to do one, why not the other?

This Train Driver and ex Signalman is a tad discombobulated...

Sorry guys, I am in the business of making people wait!
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Weird routing at Swanley 02/02/2015 at 00:54 #68659
Muzer
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Probably useful for points/TC failures or something?
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Weird routing at Swanley 02/02/2015 at 09:26 #68662
Lagertoe
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It is a legitimate route. Please attached PDF of the control table
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Weird routing at Swanley 02/02/2015 at 14:49 #68669
kaiwhara
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" said:
It is a legitimate route. Please attached PDF of the control table
Interesting. I'd be interested to know what purpose that route served :)

Andrew

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Weird routing at Swanley 02/02/2015 at 15:30 #68670
Southernrover
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I noticed just before the route called there was a train coming off the up Rochester line to the up fast so with flank protection the points from platform 2 at Swanley were reversed.
The only purpose for this route would have been to give 7O81 a clear aspect a couple of seconds earlier after the up train cleared the junction for Otford.
It may well be a legitimate route but as an ex driver I would have been less than happy to recieve the Maidstone road signal and find my train lurching to the left!

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Weird routing at Swanley 02/02/2015 at 20:21 #68676
BarryM
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" said:
I noticed just before the route called there was a train coming off the up Rochester line to the up fast so with flank protection the points from platform 2 at Swanley were reversed.
The only purpose for this route would have been to give 7O81 a clear aspect a couple of seconds earlier after the up train cleared the junction for Otford.
It may well be a legitimate route but as an ex driver I would have been less than happy to recieve the Maidstone road signal and find my train lurching to the left!
:huh: Aren't qualified drivers supposed to know the routes?

Barry

Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
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Weird routing at Swanley 02/02/2015 at 21:35 #68679
Southernrover
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That particular signal shows two routes.
A driver taking the Maidstone road would expect the train to continue straight ahead at the points, not being diverted to the left hand route.
Drivers do know their routes but any driver encountering a route like this is likely to stop their train immediately and telephone the signaler.
Drivers are taught to query routes that dont make sense-and this route doesn't make sense.

Last edited: 02/02/2015 at 22:22 by Southernrover
Reason: spelling mistakes

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Weird routing at Swanley 03/02/2015 at 01:08 #68692
DriverCurran
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As a ex-driver on this piece of route then I would be fully aware that an alternative set of s&c exist that allow me to still access the line I require (in this case the Down Maidstone), however my route knowledge told me that this move is slightly out the ordinary so I would be driving in such a manner that if there were any issues (for example the facing s&c had me routed to the Down Chatham) then I could stop within the required distance and report the situation, I certainly wouldn't be inviting myself to a no tea and definately no biscuits conversation for delaying a train service while I questioned a perfectly valid route.

There are other locations where trains normally route via crossover x but can with no prior warning route via crossover y.

Paul

You have to get a red before you can get any other colour
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Weird routing at Swanley 03/02/2015 at 02:12 #68694
kaiwhara
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" said:
As a ex-driver on this piece of route then I would be fully aware that an alternative set of s&c exist that allow me to still access the line I require (in this case the Down Maidstone), however my route knowledge told me that this move is slightly out the ordinary so I would be driving in such a manner that if there were any issues (for example the facing s&c had me routed to the Down Chatham) then I could stop within the required distance and report the situation, I certainly wouldn't be inviting myself to a no tea and definately no biscuits conversation for delaying a train service while I questioned a perfectly valid route.

There are other locations where trains normally route via crossover x but can with no prior warning route via crossover y.

Paul
What nobody seems to have mentioned is this, what is actually displayed on that signal for the route to Maidstone, and does it display something different if the Scenic Route is used? Ie, does the driver know that they are taking the Scenic Detour or will they only find out once they have got to it?

Sorry guys, I am in the business of making people wait!
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Weird routing at Swanley 03/02/2015 at 07:45 #68702
Noisynoel
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IIRC the signal only displays a C & M so you'll get an M as your destination is the Maidstone line. It doesn't state which crossovers you'll use to get there
Noisynoel
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Weird routing at Swanley 03/02/2015 at 10:08 #68705
Ron_J
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I was involved in a long, drawn out debate in a signal sighting committee a couple of years ago over an existing signal with a new alternate route through a new crossover. The SI showed the letter 'B' (for Branch) when the signal was cleared for the existing (now preferred) route, and for some reason the scheme plan designer had decided that the new alternate route should show the letter 'A' to indicate to the driver he was going to the branch slightly differently. Other routes from the signal got various other letters but no other alternate routes were provided. The linespeed was 15mph throughout.

A couple of the TOC reps were fine with this but the majority view (and my own opinion) was that despite the fact the alternate route was likely to be fairly rarely used, being presented with a different letter bearing no relation to the destination was probably more confusing to drivers. Tellingly, none of the committee members had ever come across a signal which used two different letters to indicate the same destination via alternate routes. I even contacted my colleagues in other parts of the country and none of them had ever seen such an arrangement either. There was a general feeling that the driver's route knowledge should suffice and if this is percieved as a particular risk by a train operator then they should incorporate this in their briefing material, route maps etc...

In the end we agreed that the SI should display 'B' for all routes to the branch and that was how the new route was commissioned. On topic - it was a signal in an area simulated by Simsig.

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Weird routing at Swanley 03/02/2015 at 10:54 #68706
mfcooper
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" said:
Tellingly, none of the committee members had ever come across a signal which used two different letters to indicate the same destination via alternate routes. I even contacted my colleagues in other parts of the country and none of them had ever seen such an arrangement either.
At Latchmere Junction on the West London Line, the signals that take you towards Clapham Junction (platforms 1/2 or 17) or Factory Junction or Queenstown Road have a series of different routes. They are listed as Routes A through H (left most being A, right most being H), however route B has two alternatives, B1 and B2.

The theatre box displays a letter that is (apparently) relevant to the destination, but routes B1 and B2 show a different letter to the same destination.

Hopefully a (blurred) photo is attached below.

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Last edited: 03/02/2015 at 10:55 by mfcooper
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Weird routing at Swanley 03/02/2015 at 12:12 #68709
Ron_J
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Well, there you go!
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Weird routing at Swanley 03/02/2015 at 13:03 #68710
clive
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" said:

I was involved in a long, drawn out debate in a signal sighting committee a couple of years ago over an existing signal with a new alternate route through a new crossover. The SI showed the letter 'B' (for Branch) when the signal was cleared for the existing (now preferred) route, and for some reason the scheme plan designer had decided that the new alternate route should show the letter 'A' to indicate to the driver he was going to the branch slightly differently. Other routes from the signal got various other letters but no other alternate routes were provided. The linespeed was 15mph throughout.
From memory of the standards, the same feather or letter should be used if there's no significant difference to the driver (e.g. no electrification difference, and the driver will have the knowledge to control speed correctly), but a different one must be used if there's a safety or operational implication (different speeds without advance warning, different electrification).

Your area was all 15mph and, I presume, all the same electrification, so both routes should be B. The Clapham one presumably involves a significant difference.

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Weird routing at Swanley 03/02/2015 at 13:04 #68711
clive
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" said:
Tellingly, none of the committee members had ever come across a signal which used two different letters to indicate the same destination via alternate routes. I even contacted my colleagues in other parts of the country and none of them had ever seen such an arrangement either.
I have a vague memory that either Cardiff or Newport has/had two theatres on each signal approaching the station, one giving the platform and the other giving the route through the layout to that platform.

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Weird routing at Swanley 03/02/2015 at 13:19 #68713
Steamer
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" said:
" said:
Tellingly, none of the committee members had ever come across a signal which used two different letters to indicate the same destination via alternate routes. I even contacted my colleagues in other parts of the country and none of them had ever seen such an arrangement either.
I have a vague memory that either Cardiff or Newport has/had two theatres on each signal approaching the station, one giving the platform and the other giving the route through the layout to that platform.
Cardiff doesn't have that, I don't know about Newport.

"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Weird routing at Swanley 03/02/2015 at 15:19 #68716
KymriskaDraken
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" said:
" said:
Tellingly, none of the committee members had ever come across a signal which used two different letters to indicate the same destination via alternate routes. I even contacted my colleagues in other parts of the country and none of them had ever seen such an arrangement either.
I have a vague memory that either Cardiff or Newport has/had two theatres on each signal approaching the station, one giving the platform and the other giving the route through the layout to that platform.
I think that Newport station (in the days of the panel) had the theatre indicators telling the Driver which line number he was taking, rather than the platform number.

Kev

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