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Schedule Padding and Trainset Utilization

You are here: Home > Forum > Miscellaneous > The real thing (anything else rail-oriented) > Schedule Padding and Trainset Utilization

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Schedule Padding and Trainset Utilization 05/08/2015 at 19:48 #74792
Forest Pines
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525 posts
" said:
Now, on four of those nights we were joined by a TV crew who were filming a documentary about how the railway copes with winter weather. They filmed us digging out points by hand in horizontal driving snow and zero visibility. They filmed from the cab of the snowplough engine as it patrolled the line in the pitch black night to prevent drifts. Then they went away to film the guys in Operations Control making decisions about where best to deploy resources and what sort of service to run in the morning.

To date this documentry has not been shown on TV. I suspect that's because they're simply not interested in portraying an efficient rail industry with competent, hard working employees.
I can understand why you'd think that, but you're being maybe a bit pessimistic there. You're talking about something that was filmed about six months ago - for a documentary series, that would be a very short time from filming to screen. Moreover if it's a one-off, the channel controllers would probably hold it back until later in the year, when it gets more topical again.

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Schedule Padding and Trainset Utilization 05/08/2015 at 19:51 #74793
Forest Pines
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" said:
" said:
The SVR doesn't always have that many paths free - the morning peak would be fine - later might get trickier - and a scheduled regular commuter service would have to become the focus of the timetable every day.
Even on Table C (departure from either end every 40 minutes), it's still something like 3 free paths an hour between Kidder and Bewdley! The rest of the line is another matter entirely, of course...
I suppose it is one of the shorter sections - and of course most weekdays are at most a B service too. But what we both said still stands regardless of capacity: it would very much change the focus of operations, because those trains would have to run if people were to rely on them the same way that, say, I rely on my train to work.

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Schedule Padding and Trainset Utilization 05/08/2015 at 20:19 #74795
Danny252
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Yes, and I think that's the main sticking point, especially given that the total number of paid staff who are qualified signalmen is one - it's hard to demand that volunteers must turn up!
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Schedule Padding and Trainset Utilization 10/08/2015 at 11:08 #74954
Jersey_Mike
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I located the other programme that I was referring to. It was a 2015 BBC production called "The Trouble with our Trains"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmblcN-SwmY

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Schedule Padding and Trainset Utilization 10/08/2015 at 12:17 #74955
Muzer
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718 posts
" said:
I located the other programme that I was referring to. It was a 2015 BBC production called "The Trouble with our Trains"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmblcN-SwmY
Yep, as I suspected (see my post somewhere above). Also a very good documentary IMHO. The thing to remember though is that "the trouble" they're talking about is with the underlying management and structure, which is indeed wanting in many respects. The actual day-to-day operation is actually generally quite good, certainly for a railway of its size and service intensity.

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Schedule Padding and Trainset Utilization 10/08/2015 at 12:49 #74956
Jersey_Mike
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" said:

Yep, as I suspected (see my post somewhere above). Also a very good documentary IMHO. The thing to remember though is that "the trouble" they're talking about is with the underlying management and structure, which is indeed wanting in many respects. The actual day-to-day operation is actually generally quite good, certainly for a railway of its size and service intensity.
Usually if the management and planning are bad, there isn't much the operations folks can do to compensate.

Maybe someone needs to think outside the box. If congestion is a major issue one could try operating fewer trains, but increasing total capacity by removing all the seats. Both BART and the DC Metro are hybrid rapid transit/commuter rail that have generally reached their peak period capacity limits. Seat removal has been implemented in both.

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Schedule Padding and Trainset Utilization 10/08/2015 at 13:06 #74958
Muzer
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Yeah, no seats is really going to go down well with passengers. Only the shortest of commuter journeys will be sensible without seats. BART and the DC Metro compare more with the London Underground, which, having longitudinal seating, is already quite good with capacity. They can't remove the longitudinal seats because most London Underground seating actually hides equipment. This system don't have public timetables (with the exception of the Amersham and Chesham branches of the Metropolitan Line, unless these have now gone too), so there's no issue of having to run trains to a timetable.


Management and planning issues mostly affect more major things like major rolling stock procurement and major infrastructure projects. Most minor things are handled reasonably well. And even these do happen, it's just that, where under British Rail it would have been decided by the people in the best position to actually know what is required, in our current system in many cases it is decided by civil servants and occasionally politicians/local authorities who really aren't in the best position to know what is required. Hence the criticism among enthusiasts and those in the industry of the IEP specification (though I am withholding judgement until I see it). This is not the sort of thing that causes day-to-day delays, but rather issues around the future direction of the railway.

And just to ram it home, there are not frequent and regular delays and cancellations caused by the number of trains we run. Occasionally, sure, but nowhere near on the scale you seem to think.

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Schedule Padding and Trainset Utilization 10/08/2015 at 13:22 #74959
metcontrol
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" said:
Yeah, no seats is really going to go down well with passengers. Only the shortest of commuter journeys will be sensible without seats. BART and the DC Metro compare more with the London Underground, which, having longitudinal seating, is already quite good with capacity. They can't remove the longitudinal seats because most London Underground seating actually hides equipment. This system don't have public timetables (with the exception of the Amersham and Chesham branches of the Metropolitan Line, unless these have now gone too), so there's no issue of having to run trains to a timetable.
Our newest trains have longitudinal seating but for the most part this was related to space (and being able to have extra standing room) rather than equipment storage.

We do still have published timetables for all services north of Baker Street (in the sense that customers have a specific time for each train rather than a general "3-5 minutes" tag being applied). Behind the scenes we also have to stick to timetable, otherwise the "3-5 minutes" or whatever frequency is published, very soon becomes nothing like that.

As a general point in relation to the thread title (I know it's LU and not the national network): in terms of schedule padding or recovery time, over recent years we have seen a fair amount of squeezing of schedules company wide. There used to be some services which could be left more or less alone to recover after minor disruption. Nowadays more lines are "hands on."

As for trainset utilization, we are generally only bound by having a Train Operator able to driver a type of stock, and by the limits of where stock can operate. Where I sit, if we have a shortage of Circle Line trains but plenty of Hammersmith & City line ones, we can use one to cover the other with no fear of displacing stock from its correct diagram. However we do still have certain limits when trains are required to return to the depot during the evening for scheduled maintenance.

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Schedule Padding and Trainset Utilization 10/08/2015 at 14:06 #74964
Steamer
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" said:
Maybe someone needs to think outside the box. If congestion is a major issue one could try operating fewer trains, but increasing total capacity by removing all the seats. Both BART and the DC Metro are hybrid rapid transit/commuter rail that have generally reached their peak period capacity limits. Seat removal has been implemented in both.
That would solve the problem- about 50% of passengers would spontaneously combust in indignation, leaving more room for the rest. It would be suicide for the TOC involved, and any politician who allowed (or ordered) it to happen.

While standing is OK on the Underground and metro systems, it's simply impractical on other routes due to journey time. Also, the same stock works in the middle of the day or at weekends, where overcrowding is less of an issue.


In answer to your previous question about alternative routes from Kings Cross:

Local services out of Kings Cross are operated by Thameslink (using the 'Great Northern' brand on these routes), and they have posters illustrating alternative routes available when the service is disrupted. The maps can be found on the website. The general map is the same no matter which station you click, only the written instructions are different. I assume the routes would be advertised over the passenger information systems/social media when appropriate. There is a prior agreement for the other TOCs/bus operators to accept GN tickets if the GN service is down the pan.

At lease some of the TOCs have reciprocal agreements, while in Cambridge on Saturday morning there was an OHLE problem at Bishops Stortford affecting Cambridge- Liverpool Street services. Passengers with tickets for Liverpool Street or stations at the London end of the route were advised to catch the GN service to Kings Cross and use the tube/local services out of Liverpool Street to get where they needed to go.

Long-distance services are a lot harder. WCML is only really suitable for people going to Scotland, and the MML out of St. Pancras can be used for Leeds. The usual end result is that it's quicker and easier for long-distance passengers to wait while the cause of the disruption is sorted out and services allowed through- these trains will normally be given priority and are easier to divert as they aren't serving local stations.

"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Schedule Padding and Trainset Utilization 10/08/2015 at 15:47 #74966
Peter Bennet
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5400 posts
" said:
" said:

Yep, as I suspected (see my post somewhere above). Also a very good documentary IMHO. The thing to remember though is that "the trouble" they're talking about is with the underlying management and structure, which is indeed wanting in many respects. The actual day-to-day operation is actually generally quite good, certainly for a railway of its size and service intensity.
Usually if the management and planning are bad, there isn't much the operations folks can do to compensate.

Maybe someone needs to think outside the box. If congestion is a major issue one could try operating fewer trains, but increasing total capacity by removing all the seats. Both BART and the DC Metro are hybrid rapid transit/commuter rail that have generally reached their peak period capacity limits. Seat removal has been implemented in both.
Seat reduction is coming to a line near me!

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/assessment_of_class_700_rolling

Peter

I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
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Schedule Padding and Trainset Utilization 11/08/2015 at 12:36 #75002
LucasLCC
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94 posts
" said:
Usually if the management and planning are bad, there isn't much the operations folks can do to compensate.

Maybe someone needs to think outside the box. If congestion is a major issue one could try operating fewer trains, but increasing total capacity by removing all the seats. Both BART and the DC Metro are hybrid rapid transit/commuter rail that have generally reached their peak period capacity limits. Seat removal has been implemented in both.
I could think of nothing better than standing for a 2hr+ journey...

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Schedule Padding and Trainset Utilization 11/08/2015 at 18:30 #75012
metcontrol
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227 posts
" said:
Local services out of Kings Cross are operated by Thameslink (using the 'Great Northern' brand on these routes), and they have posters illustrating alternative routes available when the service is disrupted. The maps can be found on the website. The general map is the same no matter which station you click...
Yes very handy to hear/see their generic information a few weeks back - to know that despite delays from my local station (Baldock) towards Stevenage that my ticket would be accepted on London Underground. If my company are planning that extension it would be very handy for me...

Last edited: 11/08/2015 at 18:31 by metcontrol
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