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| Replacing Signals 08/09/2015 at 13:37 #75717 | |
AndyG
1835 posts |
" said:" said:" said:2) If it's a freight booked at a stop, wait till driver phones waiting at red.This bit always bothered me a bit. When a freight stops somewhere, I don’t really know if it’s planning on sitting there until its booked departure time, or just for a couple of minutes. It would be nice if a driver who’s ready to leave early would phone right away, rather than wasting two minutes before phoning complaining of a red signal. Isn’t that what they’d probably do in real life, if the signaller couldn’t be expected to know the train’s state of readiness? That is, pick up the phone and say “Hey, so-and-so train here, booked for departure at such-and-such time, but I’m ready to go now if you can give me a route”? You already get this in a lot of cases because you get phone calls when trains enter from yards, but that same information is missing if the train happened to already be in-sim and just e.g. waiting in a siding. If you want to cheat/check, have a sneaky look at the F2 Train List to see if it's RA.but the driver has to finish his cuppa first. :whistle: I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Last edited: 08/09/2015 at 13:40 by AndyG Log in to reply |
| Replacing Signals 08/09/2015 at 17:08 #75722 | |
GeoffM
6293 posts |
It looks like people are referring to several separate issues: 1. Train stopped at station/siding and not going to leave for more than a few minutes 2. Train wrongly routed 3. New incident ahead that would ideally require a re-route. There are also several factors involved in calling trains on the move: a. The driver is not required to answer unless it's an emergency call b. The train may not even be contactable (GSM-R coverage is not nationwide, nor is it 100% in the areas it does cover; CSR is worse; NRN takes a while to contact any train if there is coverage; prior to CSR/NRN there was no way to contact a train on the move) c. If a driver does choose to answer a non-emergency call, (s)he may not do so until stopped - and that might be at the next station rather than stopping straight away. But in most of this, if the driver is about to get a change of aspect, the chances are the train may be going too fast to stop at the desired signal anyway! #1 certainly could be improved, as could the reporting ACOA at departure time rather than when it happens. As to the rest, well, we'll see whether any would improve realism - maybe a manual reversal should take a couple of minutes for the driver to shut down his cab, walk to the other end, and set up his cab again. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Replacing Signals 08/09/2015 at 21:53 #75736 | |
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Ron_J
329 posts |
" said:There are also several factors involved in calling trains on the move:The GSM-R cab mobile will automatically answer a call from the signaller after 10 seconds and route the audio to the loudspeaker. Though if the driver wishes to reply he'd have to pick up the handset as usual. " said: c. If a driver does choose to answer a non-emergency call, (s)he may not do so until stopped - and that might be at the next station rather than stopping straight away.Depends on individual TOC policy. Interestingly the majority leave it up to the driver's own judgement rather than dictating. Note I have no agenda to push and am not really bothered about whether SimSig should move in this direction or not. Log in to reply |
| Replacing Signals 09/09/2015 at 00:52 #75739 | |
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GeoffM
6293 posts |
" said:" said:Thanks - sometimes my information comes from drivers who don't realise that other TOCs may have different policies, or from Control offices who have different policies or not know that something is a "usually" rather than a rule or vice versa!There are also several factors involved in calling trains on the move:The GSM-R cab mobile will automatically answer a call from the signaller after 10 seconds and route the audio to the loudspeaker. Though if the driver wishes to reply he'd have to pick up the handset as usual. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Replacing Signals 09/09/2015 at 06:45 #75740 | |
Giantray
332 posts |
FYI The Rule Book Module TW1 39.1 clearly states that the Driver must not use the radio when a train is moving if they might become distracted. If the Driver receives a text message, they must only read that message when it is safe to do so. This a RSSB Rule Book requirement and all TOCs and FOCs should follow this and should not have their own individual policies regarding Safety Crictical Comms procedures. The Signaller's (GSM-R) Fixed Terminal Users Guide, item 5.1 states that the Signaller must not initiate a normal point to point call to a Driver without having confirmed the train is at a stand or having received a train standing at signal message. Safety critical communications protocols must be used throughout and Drivers must be contacted only when absolutely necessary. Retired Professional Railwayman (1981-2023); Pway & S&T (1981-88); Former Signalman/Signaller/ Signalling Trainer (1989-2023) [AB, TCB, Mechanical, NX, WestCad, Hitachi SARS]; Railway Historian (esp.SER, LCDR); Member of The Permanent Way Institution.. Log in to reply |
| Replacing Signals 09/09/2015 at 15:02 #75745 | |
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GeoffM
6293 posts |
" said:the Driver must not use the radio when a train is moving if they might become distracted(My emphasis) The key phrase here provides the wiggle factor and variation. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Replacing Signals 09/09/2015 at 15:26 #75746 | |
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RainbowNines
272 posts |
Also "when it is safe to do so"... Who decides that? The only person who can make that judgement in the situation is surely the driver. If I was a driver (I am not, and I'm sure someone like Lazzer will soon put me right), I'd not be happy if, entrusted to drive 500 tonnes of metal, the train company then decided when I was and wasn't safe in an office somewhere! Log in to reply |
| Replacing Signals 09/09/2015 at 16:30 #75747 | |
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Jersey_Mike
250 posts |
" said:FYISounds like rules inserted by the labour union. When radios became available in North America there was a huge fight about how issuing train orders via radio was unsafe and would cause collisions, with the signalers' union leading the charge. Those railroads that implemented DTC or TWC using the radio quickly found that accidents and mishaps went down, not up. Manned Train Order offices vanished almost overnight. Distraction is a worry however, so why don't the rules mention the second member of the crew handling the radio? Log in to reply |
| Replacing Signals 09/09/2015 at 16:50 #75748 | |
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Muzer
718 posts |
What second member of the crew?
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| Replacing Signals 09/09/2015 at 18:18 #75750 | |
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Jersey_Mike
250 posts |
" said:What second member of the crew?The one who takes tickets, open/closes the doors, performs the brake test, reverses seats, fixes en-route faults, observes backup movements, manages the schedule, does the paperwork/inspections, throws switches... Usually all that requires 3 or 4 extra people. Last edited: 09/09/2015 at 18:18 by Jersey_Mike Log in to reply |
| Replacing Signals 09/09/2015 at 18:24 #75752 | |
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RainbowNines
272 posts |
None of whom sit in the driver's cab... EDIT:... usually. Last edited: 09/09/2015 at 18:24 by RainbowNines Log in to reply |
| Replacing Signals 09/09/2015 at 18:25 #75753 | |
postal
5197 posts |
" said:" said:How dreadfully labour-intensive the railways must be Jersey Mike's bailiwick.What second member of the crew?The one who takes tickets, open/closes the doors, performs the brake test, reverses seats, fixes en-route faults, observes backup movements, manages the schedule, does the paperwork/inspections, throws switches... “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Replacing Signals 09/09/2015 at 19:52 #75758 | |
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GeoffM
6293 posts |
" said:" said:Imagine UK railways 40 years ago, pre-HST, and you're probably pretty close." said:How dreadfully labour-intensive the railways must be Jersey Mike's bailiwick.What second member of the crew?The one who takes tickets, open/closes the doors, performs the brake test, reverses seats, fixes en-route faults, observes backup movements, manages the schedule, does the paperwork/inspections, throws switches... That said, the DTC/TWC forms and radio procedure are pretty thorough with read backs and counts of boxes ticked, ensuring that the driver's copy matches the signaller's. As long as the driver adheres to it anyway. SimSig Boss Last edited: 09/09/2015 at 19:53 by GeoffM Log in to reply |
| Replacing Signals 09/09/2015 at 19:54 #75759 | |
jc92
3631 posts |
" said:" said:" said:How dreadfully labour-intensive the railways must be Jersey Mike's bailiwick.What second member of the crew?The one who takes tickets, open/closes the doors, performs the brake test, reverses seats, fixes en-route faults, observes backup movements, manages the schedule, does the paperwork/inspections, throws switches... I recall a freind of mine mentioning it was occasional practice at Worksop for a driver to bring his train in. Inspect his own wagons and red card etc, and then also shunt his own train as required. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Replacing Signals 09/09/2015 at 21:54 #75764 | |
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clive
2739 posts |
" said:" said:Takes tickets: on my line there are roving inspectors to check tickets, but they're taken by staff or barriers at the destination station.What second member of the crew?The one who takes tickets, open/closes the doors, performs the brake test, reverses seats, fixes en-route faults, observes backup movements, manages the schedule, does the paperwork/inspections, throws switches... Opens/closes the doors, performs the brake test, fixes en-route faults: driver jobs. Reverses seats: what? Seats are fixed things. Observes backup movements: driver moves to the other end or another driver drives from the other end. Manages the schedule: driver uses his watch to ensure he doesn't leave early, or station staff dispatch the train, or signaller doesn't give the road until time. Does the paperwork/inspections: driver job. Throws switches: signaller's job! Or, at a ground frame, shunter's job. Yes, there are exceptions to all of these, but a line with CSR or GSM-R is likely to be Driver Only Operated. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: DriverCurran |
| Replacing Signals 09/09/2015 at 22:20 #75765 | |
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RainbowNines
272 posts |
" said:Reverses seats: what? Seats are fixed things.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNRqDYfkKe4 I never knew this was a thing either, but someone from Japan introduced me to the concept of reversible seat direction so you're never facing backwards... I think it's mainly done at terminals when the train turns - I'm not sure if seats are free to be moved by passengers during travel... Some modern trains do this automatically. I understand our Antipodean brethren are also big fans! These ones you can move yourself, clearly! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxDrPeb2mxs Last edited: 09/09/2015 at 22:22 by RainbowNines Log in to reply |
| Replacing Signals 09/09/2015 at 22:47 #75766 | |
headshot119
4869 posts |
" said:" said:My bold. That couldn't be further from the truth, Wales has pretty much full GSMR coverage and we don't run a single train in DOO mode (Well ECS obviously runs DOO in some cases but certainly no passenger trains)" said:Takes tickets: on my line there are roving inspectors to check tickets, but they're taken by staff or barriers at the destination station.What second member of the crew?The one who takes tickets, open/closes the doors, performs the brake test, reverses seats, fixes en-route faults, observes backup movements, manages the schedule, does the paperwork/inspections, throws switches... "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Last edited: 09/09/2015 at 22:50 by headshot119 Log in to reply |
| Replacing Signals 09/09/2015 at 23:17 #75768 | |
Steamer
3929 posts |
" said:" said:Local passenger trains out of most London termini and the Glasgow electric network are Driver Only Operated. On passenger trains outside these areas, the only other crew member guaranteed to be there is the guard, who does the doors and checks tickets. Long-distance services will have another member of staff selling drinks etc. and a few TOCs have additional staff in first class, but they have limited training outside of customer service. In any case, to relay a message to the driver they'd have to bang on the cab door, so the distraction problem isn't solved.What second member of the crew?The one who takes tickets, open/closes the doors, performs the brake test, reverses seats, fixes en-route faults, observes backup movements, manages the schedule, does the paperwork/inspections, throws switches... A lot of freight trains are single-manned, some may carry an extra member of staff for shunting at certain terminals but this isn't normally the case. In most places, either the driver will supervise their own shunting movements within a yard, or will act under the instruction of staff based at said yard. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
| Replacing Signals 09/09/2015 at 23:18 #75769 | |
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jc92
3631 posts |
" said:" said:prior to refurbishment most of the 142's had reversible bus seats. the last one I travelled on was an ex Liverpool Pacer out of Sheffield last year, or maybe the year before!" said:Reverses seats: what? Seats are fixed things.What second member of the crew?The one who takes tickets, open/closes the doors, performs the brake test, reverses seats, fixes en-route faults, observes backup movements, manages the schedule, does the paperwork/inspections, throws switches... The one who takes tickets, open/closes the doors, manages the schedule - Conductors Job (if there is one). performs the brake test - Guard on Loco Hauled or Driver otherwise. fixes en-route faults - Drivers Job for basic fault finding, or else a Fitter for something complicated. observes backup movements - Changes ends or has a Shunter assigned. does the paperwork/inspections - Driver or Train preparer's Job. throws switches - Ground frames/hand points are train crew operated or shunter worked. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Replacing Signals 09/09/2015 at 23:20 #75770 | |
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Hooverman
306 posts |
I've must of delt with hundreds of calls this year where the train was in motion, both instigated by my self and by the driver using the GSM-R and before that the old CSR. As long as the driver feels they are safe to use the radio it's their judgement call (no pun intended). The only difference between the old CSR and GSM-R is we now have a call signaller but to save going straight into the call.
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| Replacing Signals 10/09/2015 at 09:23 #75774 | |
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Muzer
718 posts |
" said:observes backup movements - Changes ends or has a Shunter assigned.I will note that in tha case of forward movements but where the stopping point is not obvious to the driver (eg when the Botley landslip happened and trains had to reverse at St. Denys in a spot not normally used for standard passenger trains), the guard (or at least, I think it was the guard!) can observe from the rear of the train that the train has passed the necessary spot (probalby a signal), and signal to the driver to stop. This is not quite what Jersey Mike was after, I don't think, but I thought I'd point it out anyway as I found it interesting! Log in to reply |
| Replacing Signals 10/09/2015 at 10:19 #75776 | |
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Sacro
1171 posts |
" said:Thank you! I swore that I remembered that being a thing! Log in to reply |
| Replacing Signals 10/09/2015 at 12:42 #75778 | |
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Jersey_Mike
250 posts |
" said:" said:Flip seats were standard in North America up through the 1960's. Today they have somewhat fallen out of favor since passengers forming private cubicles reduces capacity and the conductor has to tell them not to do that.Reverses seats: what? Seats are fixed things. Regarding changing ends for every backup move, wouldn't that require an extra brake test that not only takes time, but requires a second person to confirm application of the brakes in the rear car? Whenever I am using the "reverse direction" trick to replace a signal in SimSig I usually have in mind an image of the driver just selecting reverse direction in the cab he is in. Especially since the train reverses instantaneously. :whistle: If you have a second person to take tickets and/or work the doors they might as well be issued a radio to talk with the signaler and trained to do other tasks. DOO might be good for rapid transit systems with uniform infrastructure and sufficiently frequent service, but for railways it's asking for trouble. Look at that Canadian town that was destroyed because the sole crew member was overworked. Speaking of SimSig, who handles all the divides and joins? Also wouldn't a second crewmember be necessary to enable handicapped boarding? On a light rail system near me the driver has to get out of the cab and assist disabled passengers get on or off. It is quite time consuming. Log in to reply |
| Replacing Signals 10/09/2015 at 13:52 #75779 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
Quote:Regarding changing ends for every backup move, wouldn't that require an extra brake test that not only takes time, but requires a second person to confirm application of the brakes in the rear car?Provided the trainset is still complete, I don't see much of a reason to perform a new brake test - surely if the brakes are working throughout the train from one end, they should work from the other! Quote: Speaking of SimSig, who handles all the divides and joins?In the case of (most?) MUs, the driver(s), simply by coupling the trains together with the automatic couplers. Uncoupling is achieved by hitting the uncouple button. No need to hook up any couplers, pipes, or cables. For cases where manual work is required, a shunter would generally be on hand. Quote: Also wouldn't a second crewmember be necessary to enable handicapped boarding? On a light rail system near me the driver has to get out of the cab and assist disabled passengers get on or off. It is quite time consuming.If you build your trains and platforms to the same height, it's a lot less of an issue. Platform/booking office staff would generally be available at busier stations, and disabled passengers are able to book assistance in advance. Last edited: 10/09/2015 at 13:52 by Danny252 Log in to reply |
| Replacing Signals 10/09/2015 at 15:59 #75782 | |
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clive
2739 posts |
" said:This is a bug. There should be a time delay to simulate the driver closing the cab, walking to the other end, and then opening up. Quote: Why? They have a full-time job as it is. Furthermore, we don't talk to signallers using hand-held radios; the equipment is built into the driving cab. And you'd have to train the conductor on a whole range of stuff to do with safety rules and safe communications. Quote: Note that some UK long-distance services run at greater frequency than other RT systems I've seen. Quote: The driver or a shunter. Quote: It can be the driver, or it can be station staff. (And, yes, it can cause a delay; I had to pull the passcom a few weeks ago because the ordered assistance didn't turn up.) Log in to reply |