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Former NEScot traffic flows

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Former NEScot traffic flows 07/01/2016 at 16:29 #79662
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One of my long-term projects is a fictional loco-hauled timetable for the NEScot simulation, which will contain a lot more freight than the present day.

Does anyone know what type of traffic the line used to carry? So far I have:


  • General Coal traffic to the major towns (notionally for domestic/light industry use)

  • General Van traffic to the major towns

  • Trip freights serving all intermediate sidings

  • Oil traffic to Tay Bridge

  • MOD/oil traffic to Leuchars

  • Milk trains from Aberdeen and Inverness

  • A spirits train, notionally from the distilleries north of Aberdeen



I've defined 'major towns' here as Perth, Dundee and Aberdeen, with similar traffic up the HML to Inverness.

I'm assuming fish traffic used to appear, both down the HML from Inverness and from the large towns on the coastal route- Aberdeen, Montrose and Arbroath? What time of day did this tend to leave the quayside? I'm guessing around 20-22:00, so it could be at the markets the following morning? Were there any other major industries in the area that would generate enough traffic for their own train?

"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Former NEScot traffic flows 07/01/2016 at 17:45 #79663
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Very often during the 1980s, 1990 & beyond there were a number of trains on special traffic notices conveying pipes on bogie flats with barrier vehicles between each bogie bolster & usually worked by pairs of Cl.37s off Thornaby TMD. The pipes were used for the north sea oil fields & the terminal at Sullom Voe terminal on the Shetland Isles. Subject to what period you are thinking of doing there was also a substantial amount of grain traffic from East Anglia from terminals at Royston, Newmarket & Norwich area conveying grain to the Scottish Distillers & all went through Whitemoor Yard on Speedlink services to Mossend & Millerhill for forward movement to Burghead, Roseisle & Elgin to name but a few & the subsequent return empties going back the next day. This traffic was seasonal & ran 5 days a week during the summer. The traffic wos conveyed in bogie polybulk wagons or 2 axle smaller polybulk wagons with 'GRAINFLOW' stamped in large letters on the sides of the wagons.
Last edited: 07/01/2016 at 17:48 by 58050
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Former NEScot traffic flows 07/01/2016 at 17:59 #79664
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I took this picture back in 1987 from Norwood Road bridge in March which shows one of the yard pilots returning with some empty polybulks which had been recieving maintenance at marcrofts wagon repair depot at March East. These are the types of wagons used to convey grain from east Anglia to the scottish whisky distillers as mentioned in my earlier post. The whole fleet of these wagons were allocated to Whitemoor Yard & the TOPS office there used to destin the wagons to various locations around East Anglia as required by those companies who dispacthed grain to Scotland.

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Former NEScot traffic flows 07/01/2016 at 18:02 #79665
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There used to be a Freightliner terminal at Dundee (and I presume Aberdeen). Oil pipes as Pascal says - pairs of 25s I recall. Speedlink at one time (37), somewhere I have a photo of the fish train with a class 24 at Boughty Ferry - you could smell the fish in the air for a while after.

There was an hourly DMU service Dundee to Arbroath all stops.

Peter

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Former NEScot traffic flows 07/01/2016 at 21:34 #79678
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Thanks both. In terms of era, it's all a bit mix and match- I'm hoping to create something that 'feels' right in terms of traffic movements for a historical TT, but it won't stand up to any serious scrutiny.

Quote:
There was an hourly DMU service Dundee to Arbroath all stops.
Wow! I've given them a two-hourly service, and thought I was being quite generous, given their present-day service level.

"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Former NEScot traffic flows 07/01/2016 at 21:56 #79680
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Seem to remember local trip workings in the early 90's between Aberdeen yard and Craiginches were operated by a Motherwell based Class 09 shunter and there was frequently a 56 in Montrose yard having arrived from Thrislington on an aggregate working.

Geoff

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Former NEScot traffic flows 07/01/2016 at 22:36 #79685
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" said:
Seem to remember local trip workings in the early 90's between Aberdeen yard and Craiginches were operated by a Motherwell based Class 09 shunter and there was frequently a 56 in Montrose yard having arrived from Thrislington on an aggregate working.

Geoff
Ta. When you say 'Aberdeen Yard', which siding(s) on the simulation correspond to it?

"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Former NEScot traffic flows 08/01/2016 at 06:09 #79690
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It used to operate out of Guild Street just outside of the Aberdeen Station. It certainly was not overworked by any means and I often saw it just sitting either in Guild Street or anywhere around the station area. Craiginches Up Yard was the site of the Cement works. Guild Street would have been the origin of the earlier fish trains that Peter was talking about as there was a link from Guild Street across the road and into the dock area.

Geoff

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Former NEScot traffic flows 08/01/2016 at 06:57 #79691
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In the Dundee area we had 06s which worked trains to the docks which turned out by Camperdown LX but they are not simulated. The siding at Camperdown was a cement yard I seem to recall as well as being (I think) the site of the former Dundee East station.

There was also the internal sleeper service from Edinburgh and Glasgow to Aberdeen and Inverness which involved quite a lot of shunting at Perth at 1 O'Clock in the morning.

In the 1980s there was 3 overnight trains from Aberdeen to London one was seating only.

Oh and one of the evening Dundee-Arbroath local services started from Glasgow and was formed of loco and 2 carriages which ran round in the downside sidings. The whole diagram for those coaches was quite interesting I recall, I'd need to think about it though.

Peter

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Former NEScot traffic flows 08/01/2016 at 08:08 #79694
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Good memory recollection there Peter of the sleepers. Used to operate down into Kings Cross in those days and at least one of them was hauled by a good old Deltic.

Geoff

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Former NEScot traffic flows 08/01/2016 at 11:24 #79697
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" said:

I'm assuming fish traffic used to appear, both down the HML from Inverness and from the large towns on the coastal route- Aberdeen, Montrose and Arbroath? What time of day did this tend to leave the quayside? I'm guessing around 20-22:00, so it could be at the markets the following morning? Were there any other major industries in the area that would generate enough traffic for their own train?
I'd have thought the fish was away a good deal before that.

British Transport Film Unit's Train Time (1952) includes a sequence of loading the fish at Aberdeen; the departure is pretty certainly mid-afternoon. Although maximum speeds rose steadily on a lot of main lines, I don't think there were huge increases on the lines north of Edinburgh and, in any case, maximum wagon speeds for such as fish vans increased scarcely at all.

Not sure when the fish traffic ended. When I lived at Biggleswade we had the GN Main Line as our next door neighbour and I distinctly recall the down 'Scotch Goods' consisting mainly of empty fish vans. We moved there in 1967. I have no clear recollection of it no longer running or of the traffic changing significantly. But nor do I recall it being a train I saw when visiting my father in Biggleswade signalbox (which was almost on my way home from school). With a departure from KX Goods of about 15:00 (I think it used to vary between then and 15:30) I'd have expected that to be the first train I saw on the down, but my recollection is that the first train I usually got was the down 'Parly' at about 16:15, with the three 'flyers' that had left KX starting at 16:00, five minutes apart starting about 15 - 20 minutes later. That would be the period 1969 - 71; did the Scotch Goods really come off that early? If so, it suggests the fish went over to road transport about the same time.

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Former NEScot traffic flows 08/01/2016 at 11:50 #79698
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" said:
" said:

I'm assuming fish traffic used to appear, both down the HML from Inverness and from the large towns on the coastal route- Aberdeen, Montrose and Arbroath? What time of day did this tend to leave the quayside? I'm guessing around 20-22:00, so it could be at the markets the following morning? Were there any other major industries in the area that would generate enough traffic for their own train?
I'd have thought the fish was away a good deal before that.

British Transport Film Unit's Train Time (1952) includes a sequence of loading the fish at Aberdeen; the departure is pretty certainly mid-afternoon. Although maximum speeds rose steadily on a lot of main lines, I don't think there were huge increases on the lines north of Edinburgh and, in any case, maximum wagon speeds for such as fish vans increased scarcely at all.
What were fish vans permitted to do, in general? I'd assumed they were among the fastest, given the perishable nature of the traffic.

"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Former NEScot traffic flows 08/01/2016 at 13:02 #79699
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I think the vans were called as INSULFISH which were 2-axle vans.
This picture says it was taken in 1972.

My interest in railways must have started around 1974 when I first went to Secondary School and joined the railway club and my friends and I used to go train spotting at Broughty Ferry station which is close to my alma mater. As I remember seeing the UP fish train (during daylight hours so either at lunchtime or just after school) it must have been running at least till about then.

Another thought: The (passenger) service between Aberdeen and Dundee was roughly hourly with alternate trains going to Glasgow or Edinburgh - thought the majority of the Edinburgh trains were destined to continue on - there were relatively few Aberdeen Edinburgh trains as such. Up these stopped all stations to Arbroath then Dundee, Perth and Stirling (couple may have stopped at Invergowrieat one time). Across Fife it was generally Leuchars, Cupar, Ladybank, (another I can't remember beginning with M) and Kirkcaldy, Inverkeithing and Haymarket.

There was then an hourly Dundee to Edinburgh stopping all stations to Kirkcaldy then Inverkeithing & Haymarket, though at times some also stopped between Kirkcaldy and Inverkeithing. There as an odd hours xx:35 Dundee to Glasgow stopping additionally at Gleneagles, Dunblane, Larbert and possibly Croy, Lenzie and Bishopsbriggs - can't remember.

Then there was the Dundee to Arbroath service discussed above and possibly a few Dundee Perth DMU working.


Returning the the two carriages I mentioned above and the interesting diagram.

It went something like this.
14nn Glasgow to Arbroath, Arbroath to Dundee, then 22nn something Dundee to Perth where they were shunted with the sleepers referred to going to Aberdeen at 01.50. There they went on a parcels train to Elgin and back. Not entirely sure what happened next but they ended up on an Edinburgh to Perth via Fife service before ending up at Glasgow for the 14nn to Arbroath. Might have got that entirely wrong but that's how I remember it.

Peter

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Former NEScot traffic flows 08/01/2016 at 14:21 #79701
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Thanks for all the replies.

With regards passenger service frequency, what I've got in my TT isn't all that different to what Peter has posted- I'm quite amazed that I managed to guess it that well!

"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Former NEScot traffic flows 08/01/2016 at 14:28 #79702
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" said:

I've defined 'major towns' here as Perth, Dundee and Aberdeen, with similar traffic up the HML to Inverness.
All mentioned are now officially cities!

Peter

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Former NEScot traffic flows 09/01/2016 at 09:02 #79725
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And another thought - Dundee had an allocation of a dozen or so Class 08 shunters, some of which worked at Perth. Now these had to rotate for maintenance which means that somehow (never found out how or when) they traversed the Carse of Gowrie at Gronk-pace which must take around 90 minutes or they were dragged but presumably not at line speed.

Peter

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Former NEScot traffic flows 09/01/2016 at 09:06 #79726
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" said:
" said:
" said:

I'm assuming fish traffic used to appear, both down the HML from Inverness and from the large towns on the coastal route- Aberdeen, Montrose and Arbroath? What time of day did this tend to leave the quayside? I'm guessing around 20-22:00, so it could be at the markets the following morning? Were there any other major industries in the area that would generate enough traffic for their own train?
I'd have thought the fish was away a good deal before that.

British Transport Film Unit's Train Time (1952) includes a sequence of loading the fish at Aberdeen; the departure is pretty certainly mid-afternoon. Although maximum speeds rose steadily on a lot of main lines, I don't think there were huge increases on the lines north of Edinburgh and, in any case, maximum wagon speeds for such as fish vans increased scarcely at all.
What were fish vans permitted to do, in general? I'd assumed they were among the fastest, given the perishable nature of the traffic.

By the nature of them (short wheelbase and traditional suspension) I'd guess they were cleared for 60mph. Of course most steam locos didn't have speedometers so the actual speed was dependent on the driver's skill and judgement. A story is told of Bill Hoole on the down Scotch Goods who ran 'em so well that, at one point, the Control log showed him delayed 'waiting clear for the Talisman'!

In later years some old short wheelbase vans were fitted with more modern suspension and cleared for 75mph, but I don't recall seeing any of them before about 1984

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Former NEScot traffic flows 09/01/2016 at 09:08 #79727
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" said:
And another thought - Dundee had an allocation of a dozen or so Class 08 shunters, some of which worked at Perth. Now these had to rotate for maintenance which means that somehow (never found out how or when) they traversed the Carse of Gowrie at Gronk-pace which must take around 90 minutes or they were dragged but presumably not at line speed.

Peter

It used to be that an 08 could be moved at 20mph dead in a train, once the gears had been demeshed. However, I can't see that being done at an outbase without facilities (the moves I knew were to/from main works for overhaul and de/remeshing was done at a depot), so I suspect it was indeed a light engine move at 15mph all the way.

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Former NEScot traffic flows 09/01/2016 at 09:11 #79728
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I think the vans were called as INSULFISH which were 2-axle vans.
This picture says it was taken in 1972.

My interest in railways must have started around 1974 when I first went to Secondary School and joined the railway club and my friends and I used to go train spotting at Broughty Ferry station which is close to my alma mater. As I remember seeing the UP fish train (during daylight hours so either at lunchtime or just after school) it must have been running at least till about then.

Peter

Thanks Peter.

Of course, it's possible the return vans had been rerouted by the early '70s; I've an idea freight became concentrated on the GN & GE Joint at one stage, running via March (and presumably the Lea Valley) so maybe the fish started going that way. In which case, I'm afraid I've no idea when the traffic was lost.

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Former NEScot traffic flows 09/01/2016 at 09:31 #79729
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According to something I've just read it claims fish stopped being carried by BR in 1965 but another reports seeing a fish train on 30 July 1980.

One could ask on www.scot-rail.co.uk I guess.

Of course there's no reason for the train to have necessarily run to London by then.

Peter

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Last edited: 09/01/2016 at 09:32 by Peter Bennet
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Former NEScot traffic flows 09/01/2016 at 10:31 #79731
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I just happened to find a copy of Loco Hauled Travel 1982 winter supplement (now that brings back memories!) which mentions the small loco-hauled set.

The diagram was for a class 26 but I seem to remember from my bashing days a Class 25 or anything else could turn up. It was certainly a train to watch.

0722 Perth - Abroath
0901 Arbroath - Dundee
1105 Perth - Edinburgh (presume ECS Dundee - Perth)
1251 Edinburgh - Perth
1712 Perth - Arbroath
1833 Arbroath - Dundee
2240 Dundee - Perth

If I remember rightly the set was 2 mark 1 coaches steaming away.

Calvin

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Former NEScot traffic flows 09/01/2016 at 11:16 #79733
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Thanks everyone. I feel I should emphasise that the TT I'm writing is completely fictional- I don't have the data or local knowledge to write a realistic one. It's also likely to contain types of traffic that didn't run in the same era in real life.
"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Former NEScot traffic flows 09/01/2016 at 11:26 #79734
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" said:
I just happened to find a copy of Loco Hauled Travel 1982 winter supplement (now that brings back memories!) which mentions the small loco-hauled set.

The diagram was for a class 26 but I seem to remember from my bashing days a Class 25 or anything else could turn up. It was certainly a train to watch.

0722 Perth - Abroath
0901 Arbroath - Dundee
1105 Perth - Edinburgh (presume ECS Dundee - Perth)
1251 Edinburgh - Perth
1712 Perth - Arbroath
1833 Arbroath - Dundee
2240 Dundee - Perth

If I remember rightly the set was 2 mark 1 coaches steaming away.

Calvin
And sometimes only a single coach which had to be a brake. I remember doing the 1712 Perth-Arbroath during a Freedom of Scotland in 1984. About 30-odd bashers descended on Perth as it was known that a non-boilered 27 (I forget which one) was on this that evening. In it rolled hauling a single BSK. Much fun was had at Dundee when the "normals" tried to squeeze on to get home from work.

Planotransitophobic!
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Former NEScot traffic flows 09/01/2016 at 12:04 #79736
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Don't recall the one coach myself but certainly anything from 25s to 47s could be produced for the train and in an era where the provision of train heating was an optional extra. Another fun train was a mid-morning Perth to Carlisle parcels and return which was a rake of CCT/GUV/BG whatevers with one or two carriages tagged on the back. Went via Mossend and always got a Roarer down the WCML.

Of course there was the St Rollox test train where anything leaving the works after an overhaul and repaint piloted the working from Glasgow to Dundee that returned as the 13:35. We used to watch from the Student Union bar for it arriving.

The other bizarre thing we found (think I've written this before) was that the phone number for Ferryhill depot in Aberdeen was published in the phone book so we used to ring up and ask what was on 1E41 (I think) which was the seating only overnight to London and was often 40 hauled: if so we would do it to Leuchars.

Other ad-hoc events - the Royal Train as sometimes stabled in the sidings at Wormit (TayBridge South), and the AM at Dundee used to organise MystEx and ADEX trains and we had the HoolEx/FootEx trains on Saturdays.

Peter

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Former NEScot traffic flows 09/01/2016 at 15:14 #79746
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" said:
" said:
And another thought - Dundee had an allocation of a dozen or so Class 08 shunters, some of which worked at Perth. Now these had to rotate for maintenance which means that somehow (never found out how or when) they traversed the Carse of Gowrie at Gronk-pace which must take around 90 minutes or they were dragged but presumably not at line speed.

Peter

It used to be that an 08 could be moved at 20mph dead in a train, once the gears had been demeshed. However, I can't see that being done at an outbase without facilities (the moves I knew were to/from main works for overhaul and de/remeshing was done at a depot), so I suspect it was indeed a light engine move at 15mph all the way.
The way a similar move was handled on the North Wales Coast was a slow LE move at ridiculous o'clock on a Monday morning to get an 08 out to Bangor, returning for maintenance on Saturday morning - see Trip 50 (bottom of page): http://2d53.co.uk/trip/T7011N.htm

Last edited: 09/01/2016 at 15:15 by Danny252
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