Changing "Join" location?

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Changing "Join" location? 23/04/2017 at 00:49 #94637
p72endragon
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I've got 3R17 supposed to enter Baldock at 08:08, due Royston 08:14 where it joins 1T17
1T17 enters Shepreth at 08:23, arrive Royston 08:28, join with 3R17 and depart 08:32 towards Baldock

All fine so far, but I've just been notified that 3R17 is running 20 minutes late.

If I keep to the plan, it means 1T17 will be waiting at Royston, picking up a delay, while it waits for an empty train to come and join it before it heads back in the direction the empty train has come from.

I'm thinking it might be more efficient if the join happened at Ashwell & Morden instead of Royston. Neither train is currently planned to stop there though.

Is it possible for me to edit the timetable on the fly (neither train is on my screen yet) to do this?
Should I do it? Is it realistic?
If so, how would I go about it?

(I'm pretty new to SimSig, so apologies if this should be obvious )

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Changing "Join" location? 23/04/2017 at 09:04 #94639
Peter Bennet
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I'm not sure how you propose to get 3R17 onto the UP line at Ashwell for it to effect a join and the signalling is not available to call-on the second train. A more realistic scenario would be to do it at Letchworth, where I think I'm correct in thinking they currently join trains, certainly the divide them in the evening.

You can abandon the join at Royston though the f2 signalling menu option.
https://www.SimSig.co.uk/Wiki/Show?page=usertrack:ssrun:func:f2

If a train has not entered the Sim and you decide you don't want it to then you can go to the timetable menu and click the "mark (un)entred" or simply delete the train, but don't save the timetable!. The other train you can edit out the join instruction in the timetable, again don't save the timetable.

Peter

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Last edited: 23/04/2017 at 09:10 by Peter Bennet
Reason: Further thoughts

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Changing "Join" location? 23/04/2017 at 14:32 #94644
kbarber
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I go along with Peter's thoughts. Alternatively, let 1T17 go and put 3R17 in the sidings at Royston when it gets there. Perhaps less likely would be to hold 1T17 or to terminate 3R17 and send it back empty cars.

As Peter says, trains can only couple (except in case of failure) where the signalling is provided to allow them to do so. In real life, Control would be aware that 3R17 was running late and would decide which of these plans to adopt, depending on a number of factors.
1 Is 3R17 carrying parcels or somesuch for Royston? (If the answer is yes, it has to be the 2nd or 4th option.)
2 Does 1T17 load so heavily that the incoming 1T17 would clearly be insufficient to handle it? (If the answer is yes, either coupling at Letchworth or holding 1T17 back at Royston would be preferred. That also means holding 1T17 back becomes the most likely option if 3R17 has parcels for Royston.)
3 Would manoeuvres to couple the trains at Letchworth delay other services? By how much?
4 Are there traincrew implications? (If 3R17 drver is due to finish at Royston, that would be a reason to put it through. If 1T17 incoming driver is booked to leave the train at Royston, it pretty much has to wait until 3R17 arrives and couples (either driver's PNB or he works a train back to Cambridge or he goes home 'Pass' without enough time left in his shift to get to Letchworth & back).
5 If 1T17 hangs around at Royston until 3R17 arrives, what delays does that put in to other trains at Royston?
And so on.

That's the sort of thing that could make a signalman's day interesting. Not to mention the grey hairs it created in the Control Office. Editing the timetable in F2 would be the equivalent of Control instructions to all concerned (perhaps conveyed to the driver of 3R17 via the signal post telephone when he arrives at Letchworth... to really make it realistic you don't edit his timetable until he rings in).

Of course, if you choose scenario 3 you then have a spare unit sitting at Royston. Cue a cancelled ecs working with the spare set picking up its diagram from Royston.

Last edited: 23/04/2017 at 14:32 by kbarber
Reason: None given

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Changing "Join" location? 23/04/2017 at 16:57 #94649
p72endragon
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Thanks a lot for the information :)

Peter Bennet in post 94639 said:
I'm not sure how you propose to get 3R17 onto the UP line at Ashwell for it to effect a join and the signalling is not available to call-on the second train.
Ah yes, good point... I said I was new

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Changing "Join" location? 23/04/2017 at 16:59 #94650
Steamer
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kbarber in post 94644 said:

1 Is 3R17 carrying parcels or somesuch for Royston? (If the answer is yes, it has to be the 2nd or 4th option.)
It doesn't- it's a modern timetable, so the '3' headcode refers to priority ECS. As it's the morning peak, I'd guess it's being used to strengthen 1T17.

Hold 1T17 until 3R17 gets there, I'd say.

"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Changing "Join" location? 24/04/2017 at 10:13 #94664
kbarber
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Steamer in post 94650 said:
kbarber in post 94644 said:

1 Is 3R17 carrying parcels or somesuch for Royston? (If the answer is yes, it has to be the 2nd or 4th option.)
It doesn't- it's a modern timetable, so the '3' headcode refers to priority ECS. As it's the morning peak, I'd guess it's being used to strengthen 1T17.

Hold 1T17 until 3R17 gets there, I'd say.
Told you I was a dinosaur :-)

This is where things get really interesting for the bobby... the Traffic controller rings and says something different to the Train controller... Traffic desk wants to ensure there's full capacity from the off, while the Train desk wants a sheet that's all Right Time.

Deputy Chief Controller to ajudicate... come in Fat Controller

Last edited: 24/04/2017 at 10:13 by kbarber
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Changing "Join" location? 24/04/2017 at 10:21 #94665
JamesN
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kbarber in post 94664 said:


This is where things get really interesting for the bobby... the Traffic controller rings and says something different to the Train controller... Traffic desk wants to ensure there's full capacity from the off, while the Train desk wants a sheet that's all Right Time.

Deputy Chief Controller to ajudicate... come in Fat Controller :laugh:
The job titles have changed - but pretty much sums up every day at work for me!

My two penneth -

With Royston sim you're seeing a very small section of the network. Control would be looking at a much bigger picture. It depends on crew, but If it was known the 3R was going to be 20L coming down from Kings Cross we'd probably get the unit left at Kings Cross, cancel the attachment at Royston and run 4 vice 8. Joe public is going to be more upset at a 20L train than a short formed train. The diagram would then be re-balanced at Kings Cross. There's likely some flex with the crew as Royston isn't a crew Depot, so highly likely the driver of the 1R is a thru driver; the driver of the 3R does his attachment then passes back to his next job.

If the delay to the 3R happened en route it would be trickier - if you were quick attaching at Welwyn or Letchworth would be options, albeit not ideal ones. Otherwise take the unit somewhere on the 8 cars next trip where attachments can take place and dump it there - again Welwyn or Letchworth likely candidates as they have sidings, can do permissive working and have spare crew based there. Royston isn't a great place to dump a unit - loss of operational flexibility, no spare crew based there to do attachment so you'd have to use the mainline driver which would cause delay while they fetched it from the siding.

Last edited: 24/04/2017 at 10:38 by JamesN
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Changing "Join" location? 24/04/2017 at 22:21 #94688
p72endragon
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Fascinating insights, just goes to show there's a lot more going on behind the scenes when things don't quite go according to plan than a lot of people would realise!
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Changing "Join" location? 24/04/2017 at 23:18 #94690
clive
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Steamer in post 94650 said:

It doesn't- it's a modern timetable, so the '3' headcode refers to priority ECS. As it's the morning peak, I'd guess it's being used to strengthen 1T17.

Hold 1T17 until 3R17 gets there, I'd say.
1T17 starts from King's Lynn or Ely, I forget which. Most 1Ts pick up a second unit at Cambridge, but for some reason this one doesn't. I wouldn't hold 1T17 at Royston as you'll mess up the entire peak. I suspect in real life they'd run it as 4 vice 8 and let the ECS meet it at the Cross, assuming they can find a path in; otherwise send it to Cambridge to pick up the next working of that unit.

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Changing "Join" location? 26/04/2017 at 08:47 #94715
Giantray
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kbarber in post 94644 said:
.... trains can only couple (except in case of failure) where the signalling is provided to allow them to do so.
This is not entirely correct. For trains to permissively work in Platforms, this must be a published location listed in either Sectional Apendixes or SBIs. An example for you all: Platform 2 at London Bridge, on the old layout before the Thameslink Programme works started, signals were provided to allow trains into an occupied platform. However, this was not permitted for passenger trains. The signals were provided purely to run around locos on Engineer's trains. I do believe that this arrangement is going to be provided in the final Thameslink Programme layout too. Instruction were published in SBIs.

Rule Book TS2
3.3
Permissive working
3.3.1 When permissive working can be used
You must carry out these regulations where permissive working is
authorised in the Signal Box Special Instructions.

You do not need to carry out these regulations for shunting
movements that are being made with a traction unit into an
occupied section, to attach, detach or remove vehicles.

3.3.2 Types of permissive working
You must only allow the following classes of train to be in, or enter,
a section when permissive working is taking place:
Type of line Classes of train
Goods 3 to 8 and 0
Passenger 3 to 8 and 0
(other than platform lines)
Platform lines 1, 2, 3 ECS, 5, 9 and 0.
Any class of train formed only
of MPV vehicles when
operating as a railhead
treatment or inspection train

Professional Railwayman since 1981. Railway Historian (SER, LCDR)
Last edited: 26/04/2017 at 08:49 by Giantray
Reason: None given

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