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| Key to Improving Subway Service in New York? Modern Signals 02/05/2017 at 23:45 #94882 | |
BarryM
2158 posts |
Some interesting reading? https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/01/nyregion/new-york-subway-signals.html?smp&_r=0 Barry Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia Log in to reply |
| Key to Improving Subway Service in New York? Modern Signals 03/05/2017 at 12:18 #94891 | |
dmaze
88 posts 
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One thing I don't understand is why the United States has this fascination with super-complicated train control systems. There's some discussion of this in the linked Times article: the proposal requires "installing transponders every 500 feet on the tracks, along with radios and zone controllers", with the goal of preventing drivers from overrunning red signals and exceeding speed limits. Both of these seem possible with much less ambitious installations, though. The same is true for positive train control (PTC) on the national heavy-rail network, major costs from what I can tell have been in designing new hardware and acquiring radio spectrum. (Manhattan's bigger rail problem, is hinted in the Times article, is probably the multiple recent derailments around Penn Station; Amtrak is working on a plan that sounds like it's going to replace most of the track and switches, but they haven't finalized it with NJ Transit or the Long Island Railroad yet. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/27/nyregion/amtrak-penn-station-repairs.html) Log in to reply |
| Key to Improving Subway Service in New York? Modern Signals 03/05/2017 at 13:47 #94894 | |
clive
2738 posts |
dmaze in post 94891 said:One thing I don't understand is why the United States has this fascination with super-complicated train control systems. There's some discussion of this in the linked Times article: the proposal requires "installing transponders every 500 feet on the tracks, along with radios and zone controllers", with the goal of preventing drivers from overrunning red signals and exceeding speed limits.Despite the gee-whiz!! description, we're talking about the same sort of stuff that is use in London: balises to mark fixed points so that trains know where they are and a radio link back to a computer that assigns movement authorities. Log in to reply |
| Key to Improving Subway Service in New York? Modern Signals 03/05/2017 at 15:20 #94895 | |
bfcmik
98 posts |
dmaze in post 94891 said:One thing I don't understand is why the United States has this fascination with super-complicated train control systems. I think it stems from the US system of suing anybody and everything and some huge liability payouts after any incident. Thank goodness we don't have claim lawyers chasing every mishap over here in the UK ...... Risk aversion is a by-product of a claims culture. Log in to reply |
| Key to Improving Subway Service in New York? Modern Signals 03/05/2017 at 17:23 #94899 | |
GeoffM
6287 posts |
dmaze in post 94891 said:One thing I don't understand is why the United States has this fascination with super-complicated train control systems. [...] The same is true for positive train control (PTC) on the national heavy-rail network, major costs from what I can tell have been in designing new hardware and acquiring radio spectrum.Reinventing the wheel too. ETCS could have done what PTC set out to do, with already established products and experience. Instead there are different, competing PTC systems in the US which don't work properly, have required major redesigns due to lack of experience and foresight (or should that be hindsight, given ETCS), is costing way more than projected, and is severely late. Years late. The California High Speed Rail - if it's ever completed - will require trains that run on at least two PTC systems and, I hear, ETCS for the middle part. This is exactly the scenario ETCS set out to achieve: interoperability no matter the country or manufacturer. bfcmik in post 94895 said: dmaze in post 94891 said:I wouldn't get too comfortable:One thing I don't understand is why the United States has this fascination with super-complicated train control systems. - The US has 1 lawyer per 300 people; the UK has 1 per 400 people - The US litigation rate is 74 per 1000 people; the UK is 64 per 1000 people (Germany is highest at 123) (Clements Worldwide most litigious countries) SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Key to Improving Subway Service in New York? Modern Signals 04/05/2017 at 11:05 #94914 | |
Guts
586 posts |
I know one of the project managers for that California high Speed line. He never listened when I tried to explain signalling systems over here, so I'm laughing at the 3 different systems being planned over there. Nothing's changed. LOL Log in to reply |
| Key to Improving Subway Service in New York? Modern Signals 04/05/2017 at 15:43 #94919 | |
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bfcmik
98 posts |
GeoffM in post 94899 said:bfcmik in post 94895 said:Sorry - I missed the sarcasm emoticon there. The plethora of adverts for claims handlers and the multitude of calls asking if you have had an accident in the past 3 years says exactly where the UK stands in terms of 'claim culture' or 'blame culture'Thank goodness we don't have claim lawyers chasing every mishap over here in the UK ......I wouldn't get too comfortable: Log in to reply |
| Key to Improving Subway Service in New York? Modern Signals 04/05/2017 at 18:21 #94926 | |
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GeoffM
6287 posts |
bfcmik in post 94919 said:GeoffM in post 94899 said:I assumed you were being sarcastic because of the ... but had heard (wrongly) that the UK was actually more litigious than the US and set out to find if it was true. That said, I've come to learn that some litigation in the US is more functional than nastiness, as in "I agree with you but our procedures require you to sue me in order for me to give you your money". Crazy but kind of makes sense. I knew a couple of companies and their bosses who did that but who were completely amicable throughout the process.bfcmik in post 94895 said:Sorry - I missed the sarcasm emoticon there. The plethora of adverts for claims handlers and the multitude of calls asking if you have had an accident in the past 3 years says exactly where the UK stands in terms of 'claim culture' or 'blame culture'Thank goodness we don't have claim lawyers chasing every mishap over here in the UK ......I wouldn't get too comfortable: SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Key to Improving Subway Service in New York? Modern Signals 05/05/2017 at 09:18 #94931 | |
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kbarber
1712 posts |
GeoffM in post 94926 said:bfcmik in post 94919 said:GeoffM in post 94899 said:I assumed you were being sarcastic because of the ... but had heard (wrongly) that the UK was actually more litigious than the US and set out to find if it was true. That said, I've come to learn that some litigation in the US is more functional than nastiness, as in "I agree with you but our procedures require you to sue me in order for me to give you your money". Crazy but kind of makes sense. I knew a couple of companies and their bosses who did that but who were completely amicable throughout the process.bfcmik in post 94895 said:Sorry - I missed the sarcasm emoticon there. The plethora of adverts for claims handlers and the multitude of calls asking if you have had an accident in the past 3 years says exactly where the UK stands in terms of 'claim culture' or 'blame culture'Thank goodness we don't have claim lawyers chasing every mishap over here in the UK ......I wouldn't get too comfortable: I understand that, after the Clapham Junction collision of 1988, British Rail (effectively, having promised full compensation) invited claimants to sue so that a judge could decide suitable sums of compensation. Acceptance of liability and promise of compensation was made live on air on the 6 o'clock news on the day of the accident, by Gordon Pettitt and Bob Reid respectively (notice the difference from modern procedures) and the court action was undefended and entirely amicable. Log in to reply |
| Key to Improving Subway Service in New York? Modern Signals 05/05/2017 at 19:14 #94934 | |
Soton_Speed
282 posts |
GeoffM in post 94926 said:Crazy but kind of makes sense. I knew a couple of companies and their bosses who did that but who were completely amicable throughout the process.I'm guessing that it may come from viewing all incidents as unique thus requiring different treatment, rather than attempting to define rules that will cover every eventuality. YMMV... In Zone 6, no one can hear you scream... Last edited: 05/05/2017 at 19:19 by Soton_Speed Reason: None given Log in to reply |