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Peterborough 1977 timetable being refreshed for new Loader sim

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Peterborough 1977 timetable being refreshed for new Loader sim 22/05/2017 at 06:37 #95294
Peter Bennet
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VInce in post 95292 said:


1) There is a huge amount of early running on passenger services. Not just a minute or two either, some Class one services from Kings Cross are arriving at Peterborough anything up to 10 minutes early. I presume that this is how it was in reality since the timings must have come from a WTT.
Vince
I think some of that may be due to the sim being coded for higher speed running, to a degree that's covered by the lower speeds of the trains but even so.


VInce in post 95292 said:

I would greatly appreciate any comments anyone cares to make critical or otherwise. Peter Bennet did all of the hard work and I've just tried to tidy it up a bit.

Vince
Thanks to you and everyone else involved.

Peter

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Peterborough 1977 timetable being refreshed for new Loader sim 22/05/2017 at 09:49 #95295
VInce
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uboat in post 95293 said:
Vince
Version numbers help. Saves overwriting the original.
0D66 ran when 0B64-2 didn't. I'm running the first one you posted
John
Yes, I agree. I should have done that.

This previous version didn't cover the liberation of P3 and the evening conflicts which hopefully have now been fixed in this version.

Vince

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Peterborough 1977 timetable being refreshed for new Loader sim 22/05/2017 at 10:21 #95296
VInce
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Peter,

I'm very grateful to you for the timetable in the first place. I've revamped a couple of timetables at Derby (where I worked on the back desk in the 80s and 90s) to account for various scenarios and also to correct a few conflicts but I've kept those to myself for fear of treading anyone's toes. Thank you for allowing a refresh of your work and, although Lyn asked you I guess I should have done first, even though it was not originally intended for anything other than my own use.

I joined the happy band of operational railwaymen (or should that be persons) in 1969 and this era was probably the most enjoyable I had until I retired in 2006.

I had enormous fun doing this - thanks to everyone.

Vince

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Peterborough 1977 timetable being refreshed for new Loader sim 22/05/2017 at 11:55 #95297
Peter Bennet
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When you are satisfied it's finished can you upload it to the DOWNLOAD>submit a file>correct area.

Thanks

Peter

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Peterborough 1977 timetable being refreshed for new Loader sim 22/05/2017 at 12:54 #95298
clive
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VInce in post 95264 said:

In fact the Spalding DMU sits no less that 4 hours in Platform 3 both in the morning and afternoon and does nothing, just blocking the platform. To me it seems unlikely to me that it would be allowed to stay there that long with things being so tight the other side but without the actual data to hand I can't say, of course.
I can't talk about the 1970s, but when I commuted regularly to Peterborough in the 1990s platform 3 had a virtual buffer stop near the north end: Spalding DMUs used the north end and KX EMUs used the south end, but nothing ran through it for most of the day. Might have been different in the morning peak with ECS coming from Nene, and I think there were a few GNERs through 3 in the evening in both directions, but most of the time nothing.

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Peterborough 1977 timetable being refreshed for new Loader sim 22/05/2017 at 13:00 #95299
clive
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VInce in post 95292 said:

4) The famous 8N40, which on the original was shown to start from Fletton Flyash which I don't think can be done now. I've made an assumption that the wagons on this service would be flyash presflo green-cards going to the wagon repairers so I guess they would be knocked out of the trains on the Flyash line and tripped to Crescent, where 8N40 now starts from.
That makes more sense. From maps and aerial photos there appears to have been a siding capable of holding a single wagon or perhaps two. So I would have thought failed wagons would have been dealt with in the Flyash line at Peterborough station. I take it the timings aren't such that it's a seed train from the night before?

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Peterborough 1977 timetable being refreshed for new Loader sim 22/05/2017 at 13:07 #95300
clive
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clive in post 95299 said:

That makes more sense. From maps and aerial photos there appears to have been a siding capable of holding a single wagon or perhaps two. So I would have thought failed wagons would have been dealt with in the Flyash line at Peterborough station.
This page says failures were dealt with at the station.

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Peterborough 1977 timetable being refreshed for new Loader sim 22/05/2017 at 18:48 #95301
VInce
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Just for the record there is still an issue with 0D64 not appearing - this has been fixed for the next release

Vince

Last edited: 22/05/2017 at 18:49 by VInce
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Peterborough 1977 timetable being refreshed for new Loader sim 22/05/2017 at 19:27 #95302
VInce
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Peter Bennet in post 95297 said:
When you are satisfied it's finished can you upload it to the DOWNLOAD>submit a file>correct area.

Thanks

Peter
Yes, I'll do that - need a few people to run it and check though..

V

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Peterborough 1977 timetable being refreshed for new Loader sim 22/05/2017 at 19:29 #95303
VInce
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Last edited: 22/05/2017 at 19:30 by VInce
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Peterborough 1977 timetable being refreshed for new Loader sim 22/05/2017 at 19:31 #95304
VInce
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clive in post 95300 said:
clive in post 95299 said:

That makes more sense. From maps and aerial photos there appears to have been a siding capable of holding a single wagon or perhaps two. So I would have thought failed wagons would have been dealt with in the Flyash line at Peterborough station.
This page says failures were dealt with at the station.
Thanks - for that link.

Yes I would agree, but local repairs would have consisted of simple work that could be accomplished locally.


The wagons being tripped to works would need more extensive work than would be possible by a local wagon repairer.

For instance, new wheels where a wheel drop would be required, brake-gear, brake valves etc...

Vince

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Peterborough 1977 timetable being refreshed for new Loader sim 22/05/2017 at 20:08 #95305
VInce
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Quote:
I can't talk about the 1970s, but when I commuted regularly to Peterborough in the 1990s platform 3 had a virtual buffer stop near the north end: Spalding DMUs used the north end and KX EMUs used the south end, but nothing ran through it for most of the day. Might have been different in the morning peak with ECS coming from Nene, and I think there were a few GNERs through 3 in the evening in both directions, but most of the time nothing.[/quote][quote]

Thank you for this - I can vouch for what you say, I did a lot of overnights in Cambridge in the 80s and noticed the DMU sat at the north end of the platform when I passed through on 1M45 0712 Cambridge - Birmingham

I don't know what the situation really was in the 70s and I've applied guesswork into the mix to make it all work.

I look at these empty units I've put in as a local control/TCS/Station Manager arrangement and probably not documented anyway. There was a lot of this done where I was in the 70s and 80s to clear platforms, change units over etc, so I guessed it could have happened here.

Thanks for your help

Vince

Last edited: 22/05/2017 at 20:09 by VInce
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Peterborough 1977 timetable being refreshed for new Loader sim 22/05/2017 at 22:24 #95306
Lyn-Greenwood
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VInce in post 95264 said:
Lyn,

I would appreciate your views on the following.

Having run the first 12 hours of the revamped timetable, its clear that there are some very tight and some impossible platforming issues on the 4/5 side of the station.

Across the other side things are very easy. In fact the Spalding DMU sits no less that 4 hours in Platform 3 both in the morning and afternoon and does nothing, just blocking the platform. To me it seems unlikely to me that it would be allowed to stay there that long with things being so tight the other side but without the actual data to hand I can't say, of course.

As a test, I've put in an EDMU to Nene 5B91-1 off 2B91-1 and and another 5B91-2 off 2b91-2 to clear the platform with corresponding return workings. Platform 3 then becomes useable for down trains from Kings Cross which sometimes struggle to get in on Platform 4.

I'm happy with it as I believe that's what would have happened in reality.

What's your view?

Vince
Vince,

I've only just downloaded version 3 of your timetable, so haven't had time to look at it yet. I'll do that tomorrow and get back to you with comments & suggestions. I have a working solution for the Flyash Line "Wrong route called" sim problem which doesn't involve the user doing anything special. I'm also waiting for Pascal to get back to me with more info on 8N40 which apparently ran on several days of the week, albeit to different locations, so probably wasn't a "cripples" train.

Will be in touch soon.

Lyn

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Peterborough 1977 timetable being refreshed for new Loader sim 22/05/2017 at 22:48 #95309
clive
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VInce in post 95304 said:
clive in post 95300 said:

This page says failures were dealt with at the station.
Thanks - for that link.

Yes I would agree, but local repairs would have consisted of simple work that could be accomplished locally.

The wagons being tripped to works would need more extensive work than would be possible by a local wagon repairer.
I agree, but that's not what I meant. What I was trying to say was that the impression I got from that page is that dodgy wagons detected at Fletton were left in the train there and only cut out when it got to Peterborough station. Whether repaired locally or sent elsewhere is a separate matter that I'm not disputing.

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Peterborough 1977 timetable being refreshed for new Loader sim 23/05/2017 at 15:00 #95329
Lyn-Greenwood
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VInce in post 95264 said:
Lyn,

I would appreciate your views on the following.

Having run the first 12 hours of the revamped timetable, its clear that there are some very tight and some impossible platforming issues on the 4/5 side of the station.

Across the other side things are very easy. In fact the Spalding DMU sits no less that 4 hours in Platform 3 both in the morning and afternoon and does nothing, just blocking the platform. To me it seems unlikely to me that it would be allowed to stay there that long with things being so tight the other side but without the actual data to hand I can't say, of course.

As a test, I've put in an EDMU to Nene 5B91-1 off 2B91-1 and and another 5B91-2 off 2b91-2 to clear the platform with corresponding return workings. Platform 3 then becomes useable for down trains from Kings Cross which sometimes struggle to get in on Platform 4.

I'm happy with it as I believe that's what would have happened in reality.

What's your view?

Vince
Vince,

I've had a good look at the Analysis of your latest timetable (version 3), but not yet had chance to give it a good run. Here are my suggestions.

1. Put 5L30 into P5 at 14:30. This will reduce the permissive workings in P4 by 1.
2. The timings for 0B66 should be 60 minutes later.
3. Because the timetable is for a specific day rather than for a generic weekday, I don't think you should flag the Flyash trains (and possibly other freights) to run only 50% of the time. Some Rules for associated locos could then be deleted.
4. To overcome the Peterborough Flyash Line "Wrong Route called" sim problem, edit the timetable of all inbound Flyash trains to create a new TD when they are at the Fletton Flyash Loop exit signal. This is what I did and it works.

Did you consider stabling the Spalding DMUs in P1, which is only used from 18:18 to 18:54? Might be worth investigating, but if using Nene CS works, then why create more work?

I still haven't heard from Pascal regarding 8N40, so I'll get in touch with him and see if he's found any more information.

I look forward to seeing version 4 of the timetable.

Lyn

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Peterborough 1977 timetable being refreshed for new Loader sim 24/05/2017 at 10:15 #95345
VInce
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[/quote]

Vince,

I've had a good look at the Analysis of your latest timetable (version 3), but not yet had chance to give it a good run. Here are my suggestions.

1. Put 5L30 into P5 at 14:30. This will reduce the permissive workings in P4 by 1.
2. The timings for 0B66 should be 60 minutes later.
3. Because the timetable is for a specific day rather than for a generic weekday, I don't think you should flag the Flyash trains (and possibly other freights) to run only 50% of the time. Some Rules for associated locos could then be deleted.
4. To overcome the Peterborough Flyash Line "Wrong Route called" sim problem, edit the timetable of all inbound Flyash trains to create a new TD when they are at the Fletton Flyash Loop exit signal. This is what I did and it works.

Did you consider stabling the Spalding DMUs in P1, which is only used from 18:18 to 18:54? Might be worth investigating, but if using Nene CS works, then why create more work?

I still haven't heard from Pascal regarding 8N40, so I'll get in touch with him and see if he's found any more information.

I look forward to seeing version 4 of the timetable.

Lyn[/quote]

Lyn.

1) 5L30, thank you, done

2) Thank you for 0B66 - it has been adjusted.

3) You know what they say about great minds - I've shown the flyash trains to run 100% of the time and it takes away the problem of rules for the engines. I was struggling to find a rule that worked anyway.

4) I've done this (see attachment) but it doesn't seem to work. Can you give me a screenshot?

Yes, I had thought of P1 but having been a DMU controller for eight years or so in the seventies, I considered that it would be better to be in Nene where units can be swapped over in diagrams for maintenance requirements without upsetting station workings.

I'm on my second full run through and I've tweaked a number of things. The Huntingdon turn rounds are very difficult to timetable without clashing with either something that either wants the same platform, a Class 1 on the DFL or a Class 1 on the UFL. I've done what I can with it but accept that it isn't perfect. Rightly or wrongly I've had to tweak the timings of the turnrounds because as they were there were several instances of Class 1 trains timed to run right through the middle of a DMU reversing on the DFL!

I mentioned about the early running which is quite extreme - up to 10 minutes in some cases. Peter commented about the sim being created for fast running which is true and not entirely balanced by the slower running of the trains in 1977. Another contributory factor is that most northbound trains are on time or slightly early to Connington but what causes an increase in the the early running it that they often have a 5 minute engineering/pathing allowance between Connington and Peterborough.

With no TSRs then that increases the early running by 5 minutes!

I'm having a lot of fun with this.

I'll put a new one out perhaps tomorrow after we've sorted out the Fletton issue

Vince



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Last edited: 24/05/2017 at 10:37 by VInce
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Peterborough 1977 timetable being refreshed for new Loader sim 24/05/2017 at 11:34 #95347
jrr
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A totally non expert guess on the early running - the up trains may have been deliberately given extra time to ensure they left the Peterborough area more or less on time to minimise pathing problems as they approached the much busier sections further south. I remember press articles about timetables being "padded" to ensure on time arrivals. Even now some of the Great Northern down services can arrive Peterborough several minutes early if a northbound express is a few minutes late so there is still slack in the timetables somewhere.
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Peterborough 1977 timetable being refreshed for new Loader sim 25/05/2017 at 07:59 #95358
VInce
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Hi all,

Just a note to say that the refreshed version of Peter Bennet's original Peterborough 1977 timetable is almost ready.

Lyn and I are just on final testing having, we think, shaken all the glitches out from it.

However, I understand there will be an update to the Peterborough sim soon which will correct the Flyash routing issue so I will hold back releasing the timetable until that appears.

I wish to put on record my thanks to Lyn for his invaluable help with the testing of the timetable and to Peter for doing the hard work in creating the timetable in the first place.

Vince

Last edited: 25/05/2017 at 08:48 by VInce
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The following users said thank you: KymriskaDraken, JamesN, bossman, bfcmik, Lyn-Greenwood