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Bug on Panel 10B?

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Bug on Panel 10B? 07/06/2017 at 01:12 #95711
DaveHarries
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Greetings all,

During Michajil's session on Tuesday evening I found myself doing Panels 10A and 10B. During the course of the session train 1P34 got delayed at Meopham which is off the map (see screenshot) as it is under the control of Ashford. In addition, despite it being an automatic signal, I was asked if I wished to replace signal A69 back to danger. Signal A69 is the one shown next to the line where 1P34 is but with no aspect as it is in Ashford's area.

I declined to replace A69 to danger as it is not my signal: I can't help wondering whether, had I replaced A69 to danger, I would have got anything moving from Rochester for the rest of the session.

I think this is a bug: surely I should not have had the chance to replace A69 to danger? Screenshots attached.

Dave



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Last edited: 07/06/2017 at 01:14 by DaveHarries
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Bug on Panel 10B? 07/06/2017 at 07:51 #95712
Noisynoel
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If a train is delayed you will always get the option to replace the signal irrelevant of what type of signal it is or where it is, be it under your control or external.

As a point of order the signal is (or was) controlled by Rochester not Ashford, it no loner exists, but it's replacement is controlled by East Kent Signalling Centre. the A doesn't stand for Ashford (Which is AD) it signifies that it is an automatic signal.

Noisynoel
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Bug on Panel 10B? 07/06/2017 at 09:34 #95715
Danny252
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Quote:
I can't help wondering whether, had I replaced A69 to danger, I would have got anything moving from Rochester for the rest of the session.
How would you have done so? Unless there's some bug with the control of the signal, you shouldn't be able to do anything with A69, regardless of what you tell the driver you're going to do.

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Bug on Panel 10B? 07/06/2017 at 09:59 #95716
postal
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Danny252 in post 95715 said:
Quote:
I can't help wondering whether, had I replaced A69 to danger, I would have got anything moving from Rochester for the rest of the session.
How would you have done so? Unless there's some bug with the control of the signal, you shouldn't be able to do anything with A69, regardless of what you tell the driver you're going to do.
So is there a core code bug which offers you the choice to replace an automatic signal to danger in a situation like this?

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
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Bug on Panel 10B? 07/06/2017 at 10:10 #95717
MarkC
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postal in post 95716 said:
Danny252 in post 95715 said:
Quote:
I can't help wondering whether, had I replaced A69 to danger, I would have got anything moving from Rochester for the rest of the session.
How would you have done so? Unless there's some bug with the control of the signal, you shouldn't be able to do anything with A69, regardless of what you tell the driver you're going to do.
So is there a core code bug which offers you the choice to replace an automatic signal to danger in a situation like this?
It may or may not be as, given the option of replacing signal allows you to cancel that signal or one in front of it and prevent an ACOA, I am not sure if the area is 3 or 4 aspect signalling, but say that the signaller put the first signal he can at red (it would be the first one in front of the train the has the "E" emergencey replace in the picture above) so the train may receive an ACOA from green to either "Yellow" or Double Yellow" this would prevent the driver calling in about an adverse change.

Added Info

Just checked, the line is 4 aspect, so the train called from sig A69, and the signaller put sig 274 at danger, sig A69 would go to "Double Yellow" causing an ACOA. the driver calling in and asking if signal would be replaced and you saying yes would allow you to set sig 274 to danger and not cause any issues with sig A69 changing to "Double Yellow"

It's not my fault! I was left unsupervised.
Last edited: 07/06/2017 at 10:44 by MarkC
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Bug on Panel 10B? 07/06/2017 at 10:44 #95718
headshot119
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postal in post 95716 said:
Danny252 in post 95715 said:
Quote:
I can't help wondering whether, had I replaced A69 to danger, I would have got anything moving from Rochester for the rest of the session.
How would you have done so? Unless there's some bug with the control of the signal, you shouldn't be able to do anything with A69, regardless of what you tell the driver you're going to do.
So is there a core code bug which offers you the choice to replace an automatic signal to danger in a situation like this?
From the drivers point of view on more modern installations there is no distinction on the signal plate as to whether it is automatic or controlled. So the driver may well ring you up and say do you want to put it back.

"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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Bug on Panel 10B? 07/06/2017 at 11:43 #95719
postal
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mark265 in post 95717 said:

Added Info

Just checked, the line is 4 aspect, so the train called from sig A69, and the signaller put sig 274 at danger, sig A69 would go to "Double Yellow" causing an ACOA. the driver calling in and asking if signal would be replaced and you saying yes would allow you to set sig 274 to danger and not cause any issues with sig A69 changing to "Double Yellow"
So there is a bug in the sense that the message generated is not accurate; in the case you suggest, A69 is being returned to a caution aspect rather than a danger aspect.

In this particular circumstance and irrelevant to the original query, would the emergency replacement button be used in any event or would the bobby just let things take their course leaving the road automatically set to the next controlled signal just before Fawkham Junction?

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
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Bug on Panel 10B? 07/06/2017 at 11:49 #95720
Sacro
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Trains shouldn't get delayed at locations external to the main sim area, raised #17453
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Bug on Panel 10B? 07/06/2017 at 22:26 #95728
Peter Bennet
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Sacro in post 95720 said:
Trains shouldn't get delayed at locations external to the main sim area, raised #17453
Why not? There does seem to be an issue with the calls etc. but if a train is delayed off your patch it'll have an impact on your operation.

Peter

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Bug on Panel 10B? 07/06/2017 at 23:08 #95729
Sacro
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Peter Bennet in post 95728 said:
Sacro in post 95720 said:
Trains shouldn't get delayed at locations external to the main sim area, raised #17453
Why not? There does seem to be an issue with the calls etc. but if a train is delayed off your patch it'll have an impact on your operation.

Peter
I thought it was a standard thing to be honest.

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Bug on Panel 10B? 08/06/2017 at 00:28 #95730
postal
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Peter Bennet in post 95728 said:
Sacro in post 95720 said:
Trains shouldn't get delayed at locations external to the main sim area, raised #17453
Why not? There does seem to be an issue with the calls etc. but if a train is delayed off your patch it'll have an impact on your operation.

Peter
I think that the underlying point has been missed here in the interests of a debate. As far as the signaller on the Vic SE panel is concerned the only significant point is that the train will not enter his/her area of control at due time (which is already catered for in SimSig because the core code has the facility to allow trains to enter late).

Given that, where is the sense in bothering the Vic SE signaller with irrelevant matters about delay outside his/her area of control and asking him/her for input when all (s)he needs to get is a message that NZNN is running late? Surely this makes Ben's (Sacro's) point perfectly valid.

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
Last edited: 08/06/2017 at 00:29 by postal
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Bug on Panel 10B? 08/06/2017 at 07:00 #95732
Peter Bennet
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postal in post 95730 said:
Peter Bennet in post 95728 said:
Sacro in post 95720 said:
Trains shouldn't get delayed at locations external to the main sim area, raised #17453
Why not? There does seem to be an issue with the calls etc. but if a train is delayed off your patch it'll have an impact on your operation.

Peter
I think that the underlying point has been missed here in the interests of a debate. As far as the signaller on the Vic SE panel is concerned the only significant point is that the train will not enter his/her area of control at due time (which is already catered for in SimSig because the core code has the facility to allow trains to enter late).

Given that, where is the sense in bothering the Vic SE signaller with irrelevant matters about delay outside his/her area of control and asking him/her for input when all (s)he needs to get is a message that NZNN is running late? Surely this makes Ben's (Sacro's) point perfectly valid.
There's a difference between the notification that a train is running late and will enter the sim late and one that has entered the Sim and is subsequently delayed at a station off-patch. I did acknowledge that there did seem to be an issue with the calls, by which I mean that the driver would not call you etc. However, the fact that a train was delayed at an off-screen station after entering the Sim is not of itself wrong (in my view), it's the same, in principle, as a train entering the Sim late.

It may be rare for Sims to have off-patch stations between entering the Sim and arriving on-patch but it's certainly possible, especially where mandatory timing points require the sim to be extended behind the scenes (Motherwell has some for example).

Peter

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Bug on Panel 10B? 08/06/2017 at 07:54 #95733
Jan
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I dimly remember some alternative version of the telephone message where the phone call would be worded such as to come from the neighbouring signal box and you possibly (not sure if always or depending on whether the external signal could in some way be influenced by you because it was near the fringe) only had the option of responding OK. Leeds would be such an example if anybody wants to watch out for this and see if my memory is correct - a number of stations on the Harrogate line are not under York's control but still modelled in the sim.
Two million people attempt to use Birmingham's magnificent rail network every year, with just over a million of them managing to get further than Smethwick.
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Bug on Panel 10B? 08/06/2017 at 09:00 #95735
Peter Bennet
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Jan in post 95733 said:
I dimly remember some alternative version of the telephone message where the phone call would be worded such as to come from the neighbouring signal box and you possibly (not sure if always or depending on whether the external signal could in some way be influenced by you because it was near the fringe) only had the option of responding OK. Leeds would be such an example if anybody wants to watch out for this and see if my memory is correct - a number of stations on the Harrogate line are not under York's control but still modelled in the sim.
That's the one for pre-entry to the Sim.

Peter

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Bug on Panel 10B? 08/06/2017 at 09:07 #95736
MarkC
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Peter Bennet in post 95732 said:

There's a difference between the notification that a train is running late and will enter the sim late and one that has entered the Sim and is subsequently delayed at a station off-patch. I did acknowledge that there did seem to be an issue with the calls, by which I mean that the driver would not call you etc. However, the fact that a train was delayed at an off-screen station after entering the Sim is not of itself wrong (in my view), it's the same, in principle, as a train entering the Sim late.

It may be rare for Sims to have off-patch stations between entering the Sim and arriving on-patch but it's certainly possible, especially where mandatory timing points require the sim to be extended behind the scenes (Motherwell has some for example).

Peter
I'm still of the belief that the call is correct, in many sims where you get a delay call asking you if you want to put signal at danger, there is often no signal in front of the train you can put at danger due to it being an automatic type with no emergency replacement. and the first signal you can set to danger can be 2 or 3 ahead of the train. in the case of trains delay at off sims locations if the delay if several signals away from signals you control (about 3 or 4) then the train will call and inform of delay but no offer to put signal back at danger, and your only reply is "ok train is delayed". even tho on the first post the train is at a signal just out of your control (but others ahead are in your control) and is asking for signal to be placed it danger, seems like a standard request as I would think a driver calling up would ask for the most restictive aspect, you replying yes would allow aspect changes, even to a caution, and where there are junctions ahead allow the route to be cleared to allow trains coming from diverging lines to continute running, but if you were unable to change signals in your panel and give an ACOA in the situation as in the first post signallers would be unable to cancel the route ahead of the train and you could block another line, there by possibly delaying more trains than necessary

It's not my fault! I was left unsupervised.
Last edited: 08/06/2017 at 09:09 by MarkC
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Bug on Panel 10B? 08/06/2017 at 12:31 #95741
Peter Bennet
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mark265 in post 95736 said:
Peter Bennet in post 95732 said:

There's a difference between the notification that a train is running late and will enter the sim late and one that has entered the Sim and is subsequently delayed at a station off-patch. I did acknowledge that there did seem to be an issue with the calls, by which I mean that the driver would not call you etc. However, the fact that a train was delayed at an off-screen station after entering the Sim is not of itself wrong (in my view), it's the same, in principle, as a train entering the Sim late.

It may be rare for Sims to have off-patch stations between entering the Sim and arriving on-patch but it's certainly possible, especially where mandatory timing points require the sim to be extended behind the scenes (Motherwell has some for example).

Peter
I'm still of the belief that the call is correct, in many sims where you get a delay call asking you if you want to put signal at danger, there is often no signal in front of the train you can put at danger due to it being an automatic type with no emergency replacement. and the first signal you can set to danger can be 2 or 3 ahead of the train. in the case of trains delay at off sims locations if the delay if several signals away from signals you control (about 3 or 4) then the train will call and inform of delay but no offer to put signal back at danger, and your only reply is "ok train is delayed". even tho on the first post the train is at a signal just out of your control (but others ahead are in your control) and is asking for signal to be placed it danger, seems like a standard request as I would think a driver calling up would ask for the most restictive aspect, you replying yes would allow aspect changes, even to a caution, and where there are junctions ahead allow the route to be cleared to allow trains coming from diverging lines to continute running, but if you were unable to change signals in your panel and give an ACOA in the situation as in the first post signallers would be unable to cancel the route ahead of the train and you could block another line, there by possibly delaying more trains than necessary
Except that the driver would call the signal box covering the signal concerned, which I is think the point. You could get a message similar to what you get for a pre-entry delay.

Peter

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Bug on Panel 10B? 08/06/2017 at 12:41 #95742
MarkC
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Peter Bennet in post 95741 said:
mark265 in post 95736 said:
Peter Bennet in post 95732 said:

There's a difference between the notification that a train is running late and will enter the sim late and one that has entered the Sim and is subsequently delayed at a station off-patch. I did acknowledge that there did seem to be an issue with the calls, by which I mean that the driver would not call you etc. However, the fact that a train was delayed at an off-screen station after entering the Sim is not of itself wrong (in my view), it's the same, in principle, as a train entering the Sim late.

It may be rare for Sims to have off-patch stations between entering the Sim and arriving on-patch but it's certainly possible, especially where mandatory timing points require the sim to be extended behind the scenes (Motherwell has some for example).

Peter
I'm still of the belief that the call is correct, in many sims where you get a delay call asking you if you want to put signal at danger, there is often no signal in front of the train you can put at danger due to it being an automatic type with no emergency replacement. and the first signal you can set to danger can be 2 or 3 ahead of the train. in the case of trains delay at off sims locations if the delay if several signals away from signals you control (about 3 or 4) then the train will call and inform of delay but no offer to put signal back at danger, and your only reply is "ok train is delayed". even tho on the first post the train is at a signal just out of your control (but others ahead are in your control) and is asking for signal to be placed it danger, seems like a standard request as I would think a driver calling up would ask for the most restictive aspect, you replying yes would allow aspect changes, even to a caution, and where there are junctions ahead allow the route to be cleared to allow trains coming from diverging lines to continute running, but if you were unable to change signals in your panel and give an ACOA in the situation as in the first post signallers would be unable to cancel the route ahead of the train and you could block another line, there by possibly delaying more trains than necessary
Except that the driver would call the signal box covering the signal concerned, which I is think the point. You could get a message similar to what you get for a pre-entry delay.

Peter
In real life I agree, but sims seem to make an allowance to this in where trains enter a sim and have station stops before it comes under your control, but if there was a sim that chainned at that point then it would call the correct signal box, and that signaller would contact you, (by either shouting accros the room or phoning the adjacent signal box)

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Bug on Panel 10B? 08/06/2017 at 13:28 #95744
clive
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mark265 in post 95717 said:
postal in post 95716 said:

So is there a core code bug which offers you the choice to replace an automatic signal to danger in a situation like this?
It may or may not be as, given the option of replacing signal allows you to cancel that signal or one in front of it and prevent an ACOA,
The core code should either look ahead and name the first controlled signal in the line of route, or it should reword the message to make it clear that a different signal might be involved.

Mantis 17455 raised.

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Bug on Panel 10B? 08/06/2017 at 16:48 #95746
KymriskaDraken
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clive in post 95744 said:
mark265 in post 95717 said:
postal in post 95716 said:

So is there a core code bug which offers you the choice to replace an automatic signal to danger in a situation like this?
It may or may not be as, given the option of replacing signal allows you to cancel that signal or one in front of it and prevent an ACOA,
The core code should either look ahead and name the first controlled signal in the line of route, or it should reword the message to make it clear that a different signal might be involved.

Mantis 17455 raised.
I'd just amend the message: "1X01 is delayed due to the wrong type of throne. Would you like to replace any appropriate signals to Danger?"

Kev

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Bug on Panel 10B? 08/06/2017 at 18:31 #95750
DaveHarries
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Thanks all for your replies.

I think that messages for trains delayed at a location prior to entering the sim area should come from the neighbouring box, rather than the train driver. For example a call could come from (name) PSB saying "Train xZxx has been delayed at (location) and will be running (x) minutes late."

Dave

Last edited: 08/06/2017 at 19:03 by DaveHarries
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Bug on Panel 10B? 09/06/2017 at 18:41 #95777
GeoffM
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The simple solution right now is to do as Kev suggests and make the message non-specific.

The longer solution, per Dave, requires a bit more data to be complete. The way the reporting works is a trigger on/off on a track, rather than the signal belonging to another box. In fact, the first signal beyond your area is associated with another signalbox for chaining purposes, but rarely are any beyond that which is where the data change would be required. However, the train knows it's not a "local" signal from the report trigger in the "off" state so could simply report "Adjacent signalbox reporting that 1X11 is delayed" instead of "Rochester reporting that 1X11 is delayed".

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