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Manchester East 1985, 1987 & 1991 timetables

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Manchester East 1985, 1987 & 1991 timetables 18/04/2018 at 14:04 #107596
whatlep
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This thread is to announce the availability of, and document any feedback/ issues with, a trio of timetables for Manchester East in BR days. Timetables for 1985 and 1987 are now available: 1991 will follow soon, subject to moderator approval.

The simulations' hours of (weekday) operation and total number of trains provided are as listed below. The actual number of trains run will vary slightly by the day of week generated on simulation start-up.
1985: 04.56 - 00.30 440 trains
1987: 04.56 - 00.30 410 trains
1991: 05.14 - 23.59 386 trains

Each simulation has its own charms and peculiarities and is rather different to today's. Look out in particular for 1985's abundance of freight traffic and 1987's timetabled conflicts between trains on the Denton - Heaton Norris single line. Those who weren't around at the time may be rather surprised by some of the routes used for long-distance passenger trains and the higher peak-hour frequencies on the Hadfield and Marple routes 30+ years ago.

Each timetable can be operated by one user. I hope they prove interesting and enjoyable.

Last edited: 18/04/2018 at 19:40 by whatlep
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Mancchester East 1985, 1987 & 1991 timetables 18/04/2018 at 18:13 #107600
jc92
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Interesting. Are there no booked workings ashton moss South to OA&GB junction in these timetables? That side of the triangle didnt close until the mid 90s
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Mancchester East 1985, 1987 & 1991 timetables 18/04/2018 at 18:32 #107601
Table 52
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Excellent stuff!

When released, is it likely that the 1991 timetable will chain with your 1991 timetable for Piccadilly?

Last edited: 18/04/2018 at 18:32 by Table 52
Reason: Inability to spell

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Mancchester East 1985, 1987 & 1991 timetables 18/04/2018 at 19:33 #107602
whatlep
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jc92 in post 107600 said:
Interesting. Are there no booked workings ashton moss South to OA&GB junction in these timetables? That side of the triangle didnt close until the mid 90s
Interesting question. I wondered exactly the same thing when I got the WTTs together, not least as Ashton Moss South Jn was a specified timing point (though OA&GB Jn wasn't). There was absolutely nothing timetabled to use that curve in any of the 3 years, not even the York-Shrewsbury mails. I wonder if Ashton Moss South Jn was permanently switched out for some time befor closure?

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Mancchester East 1985, 1987 & 1991 timetables 18/04/2018 at 19:35 #107603
whatlep
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Table 52 in post 107601 said:
Excellent stuff!

When released, is it likely that the 1991 timetable will chain with your 1991 timetable for Piccadilly?
Thanks for the compliment. Chaining is doubtful, I'm afraid. It isn't something I know how to do, nor do I get involved in it as an end user, so I haven't made any conscious provision for it.

Last edited: 18/04/2018 at 19:35 by whatlep
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Mancchester East 1985, 1987 & 1991 timetables 18/04/2018 at 20:09 #107604
Steamer
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whatlep in post 107603 said:
Thanks for the compliment. Chaining is doubtful, I'm afraid. It isn't something I know how to do, nor do I get involved in it as an end user, so I haven't made any conscious provision for it.
The main thing you need to do is ensure that every train that exits Piccadilly at Ashburys has a corresponding entry in East's timetable, and vice versa. Train ID, UID (if you're using them) need to be identical, as do properties such as train length.

If your timetable makes day of the week decisions, there may be some other work to do to make sure both simulations run the same day, but I'm not sure what the best way to do that is.

Let the challenge... Begin!
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Mancchester East 1985, 1987 & 1991 timetables 18/04/2018 at 21:06 #107607
whatlep
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Steamer in post 107604 said:
whatlep in post 107603 said:
Thanks for the compliment. Chaining is doubtful, I'm afraid. It isn't something I know how to do, nor do I get involved in it as an end user, so I haven't made any conscious provision for it.
The main thing you need to do is ensure that every train that exits Piccadilly at Ashburys has a corresponding entry in East's timetable, and vice versa. Train ID, UID (if you're using them) need to be identical, as do properties such as train length.

If your timetable makes day of the week decisions, there may be some other work to do to make sure both simulations run the same day, but I'm not sure what the best way to do that is.
Thanks for that clarification. I'm afraid the two timetables definitely won't be chainable as the UIDs are completely different between them (I use a system where the train ID is suffixed by its time of entry/ start to provide a UID: it may be bonkers to others, but it makes perfect sense to me when debugging!).

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Mancchester East 1985, 1987 & 1991 timetables 18/04/2018 at 21:56 #107612
pedroathome
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whatlep in post 107607 said:
Steamer in post 107604 said:
whatlep in post 107603 said:
Thanks for the compliment. Chaining is doubtful, I'm afraid. It isn't something I know how to do, nor do I get involved in it as an end user, so I haven't made any conscious provision for it.
The main thing you need to do is ensure that every train that exits Piccadilly at Ashburys has a corresponding entry in East's timetable, and vice versa. Train ID, UID (if you're using them) need to be identical, as do properties such as train length.

If your timetable makes day of the week decisions, there may be some other work to do to make sure both simulations run the same day, but I'm not sure what the best way to do that is.
Thanks for that clarification. I'm afraid the two timetables definitely won't be chainable as the UIDs are completely different between them (I use a system where the train ID is suffixed by its time of entry/ start to provide a UID: it may be bonkers to others, but it makes perfect sense to me when debugging!).
I thought, and I'll happily be corrected on this, if the UIDs don't match, then it falls back on matching the TD.

James

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Mancchester East 1985, 1987 & 1991 timetables 19/04/2018 at 07:59 #107617
Jan
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They should, although then of course you're back to the old problem of what happens when you get an ambiguous match...
Two million people attempt to use Birmingham's magnificent rail network every year, with just over a million of them managing to get further than Smethwick.
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Mancchester East 1985, 1987 & 1991 timetables 19/04/2018 at 12:02 #107618
whatlep
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The 1991 timetable is now also available to download. Somewhat quieter than the previous two, but strill enough to keep an operator on their toes.

It occurred to me yesterday that I have the materials to create a timetable for 1989, known to operators of the era as "the timetable that failed". An overly ambitious timetable with two many trains for Manchester Piccadilly's facilities to handle, including those which passed through Manchester East's control area.

I think it's just got to be done, though not for a week or two....

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Mancchester East 1985, 1987 & 1991 timetables 19/04/2018 at 14:17 #107619
Steamer
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whatlep in post 107618 said:
It occurred to me yesterday that I have the materials to create a timetable for 1989, known to operators of the era as "the timetable that failed".
You'll have to get in quick before the May 2018 timetable claims that crown ;)

Quote:
It occurred to me yesterday that I have the materials to create a timetable for 1989, known to operators of the era as "the timetable that failed". An overly ambitious timetable with two many trains for Manchester Piccadilly's facilities to handle, including those which passed through Manchester East's control area.
I'm intrigued. Could you elaborate a bit more on what went wrong?

Let the challenge... Begin!
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Mancchester East 1985, 1987 & 1991 timetables 19/04/2018 at 18:40 #107622
whatlep
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Steamer in post 107619 said:
whatlep in post 107618 said:
It occurred to me yesterday that I have the materials to create a timetable for 1989, known to operators of the era as "the timetable that failed".
You'll have to get in quick before the May 2018 timetable claims that crown ;)

Quote:
It occurred to me yesterday that I have the materials to create a timetable for 1989, known to operators of the era as "the timetable that failed". An overly ambitious timetable with two many trains for Manchester Piccadilly's facilities to handle, including those which passed through Manchester East's control area.
I'm intrigued. Could you elaborate a bit more on what went wrong?
With pleasure, though it's largely the old story of trying to shift too many trains through the Oxford Road-Castlefield Jn bottleneck, compounded by junctions on the flat. The comparison with the new 2018 timetable may be grimly prophetic. The 1989 timetable was rewritten comprehensively in late 1990, but enormous damage was done to BR's and GMPTE's reputations.

On May 15th, 1989, the Windsor Link was brought into full operation with transfer of almost all long-distance trains from Manchester Victoria to Manchester Piccadilly. The number of paths required between Castlefield and Oxford Road was no more than had been traditional in rush-hours for many years BUT some crucial things were different:
1) The whole timetable relied on precise timekeeping, not just for 4 hours a day, but all through the day. Service frequency was increase between Stockport and Salford Crescent, on the basis that more frequent (but shorter) trains would be more attractive to passengers. Once delays started to happen, there was little potential to get things back on track. A failure to incoprorate sufficient contingency into the overall plan.
2) Local trains had generally kept time: the new lomg-haul services did not do so to the same extent. So delays started to accumulate with tedious inevitability.
3) Many local services were "paired" to create cross-Manchester services (think Cheadle Hulme to Southport, Blackpool - Buxton or Warrington Central to Chester via Stockport & Altrincham). Few of them were wanted by passengers and the stock required rarely matched all needs, but the killer problem was that delays could not be recovered unless trains were terminated short of destination and there weren't many places you could do that in the new timetable without impacting something else.
4) Flat junctions! Not just in central Manchester, but right across the new services' network, from Hazel Grove to Bolton. Every one a potential source of delay. Oh for some of the HS2 dosh to be spent on the flyovers designed in the 1970s for Slade Lane Jn and Cheadle Hulme!
5) Station stops. Not enough time allowed for both long-distance services, nor local services. The key local services from Oxford Road to Altrincham and Warrington were both reduced in frequency in rush hours so had more people simplyu trying to get on and off. Altrinhcam services had been timetabled for 20 second station stops for many years and achieved that target. Not in rush hour from 1989 with half the service disappeared!
6) Quart into a pint-pot through Ashburys. In contrast to the rush-hour reductions at Oxford Road, rush-hour services to Hadfield and Marple continued at their previous 15 minute intervals, but had extra services imposed on the service pattern. It was simply too much, especially with the Trans-Pennine services which needed to cross the whole layout on the flat between Ardwick & Piccadilly.
7) Rerouting from Victoria - Sending trains from the Bolton direction to Piccadilly meant passengers for Victoria had to change trains at Salford Crescent. Those planning the big shift to Piccadilly massively underestimated the people numbers involved. The volume of people changing trains at Salford Crescent meant station stops there became extended and the platforms dangerously congested. Delays introduced unnecessarily. The changes also seriously annoyed commuters who had established jobs in the Salford or Deansgate areas. Grumpy passengers are rarely co-operative when station duties become critical to keep the timetable flowing....

The situation was eventually resolved by a mix of reducing off-peak local services' frequencies and returning peak-hour workings to Manchester Victoria. Better "flighting" of trains through Ashburys played its part too. By 1992, the Altrincham line had closed, helping BR further, though it did nothing to benefit me as a regular user of that route!

Still, it could never happen again. Could it?

Last edited: 20/04/2018 at 00:57 by whatlep
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Mancchester East 1985, 1987 & 1991 timetables 19/04/2018 at 21:15 #107624
norman B
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I was working as a Wigan conductor at this time and whilst the TT looked great on paper the reality was oh so different.

The Southport services never did run to Cheadle Hume but continued to terminate at Victoria.The Wigans which ran via Bolton operated to Cheadle Hume and turned back in the up loop between Cheadle Hume and Wilmslow.If the service was in tatters we often had a request at Stockport if we would carry on to Crewe which we all did.,then ran light back to cheadle Hume to resume our diagram.(better than hanging around for 50 mins).The section through Oxford road was usually nose to tail with trains with the two through platforms at Piccadilly often seeing two trains in each platform with trains at every signal back to Salford Crescent.Breakdowns became commonplace around this time too which added to the fun.

One day,just after the morning peak we had struggled to Cheadle Hume arriving just with time to swap ends grab a swift cup of tea and we had to leave.The driver had nursed the set and was fearing fuel starvation.We made it back to Stockport when the driver called it a day.Station Inspector got us to take it up to Longsight with instructions to stop at the staff halt for fitters.It took us 38mins to get to that point and we delayed many services as we had to stop and manually pump fuel through and set off again.Fitters arrived with fuel bled the engines and she fred up and sounded ok.We set off heading for Newton Heath,.You guessed it we came to a stand at the west end of Oxford Road station .After more hand pumping we Made it to Salford crescentand found another 142 set with the smae problems.We coupled up and heade dfor Newton Heath stopping twice more en route.

At least 20 sets had got contaminated fuel in them and the service was in chaos We got back to Wigan making overtime having done just two trips that day.

Just an example of what happened with that TT.

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Mancchester East 1985, 1987 & 1991 timetables 19/04/2018 at 22:03 #107625
Steamer
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Thanks for the replies. How many tph were they trying to get through Deansgate?
Let the challenge... Begin!
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Mancchester East 1985, 1987 & 1991 timetables 20/04/2018 at 12:01 #107631
whatlep
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Steamer in post 107625 said:
Thanks for the replies. How many tph were they trying to get through Deansgate?
Off-peak, 12 tph in each direction. In the peak, 14 tph. To put those numbers in context, for many years before the 1987-89 changes, the rush hours were 13tph, but the off-peak was 7/8 tph. I'm told the current timetable plan maximum at any time is back down to 12 tph.

I should probably add that in the 13tph era, 9 tph were heading to/from Altrincham and 4 to/from Warrington with the only conflict point at Cornbrook Jn which was signalled for 50mph in both directions (I don't recall SimSig's approach control in 1990s mode).

Last edited: 20/04/2018 at 12:07 by whatlep
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Mancchester East 1985, 1987 & 1991 timetables 20/04/2018 at 14:30 #107632
Steamer
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whatlep in post 107631 said:
Off-peak, 12 tph in each direction. In the peak, 14 tph. To put those numbers in context, for many years before the 1987-89 changes, the rush hours were 13tph, but the off-peak was 7/8 tph. I'm told the current timetable plan maximum at any time is back down to 12 tph.
Planned off-peak is 13tph Deansgate- Oxford Road, 11tph beyond. That's up from the current 11tph Deansgate- Oxford Rd, 8tph beyond.

Those numbers don't include freight paths, which are typically 1tph each way.

Let the challenge... Begin!
Last edited: 20/04/2018 at 14:32 by Steamer
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Mancchester East 1985, 1987 & 1991 timetables 20/04/2018 at 16:07 #107634
norman B
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Further to the information Whatlep has provided I list the operations which Wigan Wallgate conductors covered that summer.

Blackpool-Preston - Wigan North Western - Liverpool via St Helens and some via Newton le Willows.

Wallgate- Kirby.

Wallgate-Southport

Wallgate -Manchester Victoria via Atherton and or Bolton

Wallgate Cheadle Hume via Bolton

Wallgate - Hazel Grove -via Bolton

North western - Liverpool.

North Western - Preston

Manchester Victoria- Liverpool via Chat Moss.

as well as conducting on a regular basis Saturday/Sunday West Coast Diversions which operated via the Atherton line to Manchester and then on to Stockport/Crewe.

As part of the easing on the Deansgate section the Manchester -Southport trains operated with type 37 haulage from Victoria via Atherton as well as some via Bolton.

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Manchester East 1985, 1987 & 1991 timetables 07/05/2018 at 13:07 #107853
whatlep
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FYI, a 1989 timetable has just been submitted to the Moderators for approval. 04.10-00.30 weekdays: 426 trains.

A very distinctive timetable with many nasty junction conflicts built in! Subject to mod approval, available in due course via the download section.

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Manchester East 1985, 1987 & 1991 timetables 08/07/2018 at 14:07 #110127
whatlep
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Updated versions (v1.1) of the 1985 and 1987 timetables have been submitted for Moderator approval, following the release of Manchester East v1.5.1. The only change in each year is that 6H59 15.42 ex-Bredbury now has the proper loco run-round in Guide Bridge U&D loop. In 1989 & 1991, the run-round was peformed at Woodley.

Many thanks to pedroathome for taking the time and truble to update Manchester East, one of my favourite simulations for SimSig.

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Manchester East 1985, 1987, 1989 & 1991 timetables 02/08/2018 at 17:31 #110687
whatlep
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An updated version (V1.1) of the 1989 timetable has been submitted to the Mods for approval. It fixes timetable validation errors with three trains using the goods line between Ashburys and Ardwick Jn which appeared with the Manchester East sim upgrade to V1.5.1.
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