Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable

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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 12/08/2018 at 23:24 #110962
58050
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If anyone has any questions or issues regarding the Carlisle 1979-1980 timetable on the new release of Carlisle sim on loader please post on here.
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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 12/08/2018 at 23:46 #110964
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Copied from the Generak tab of the Carlisle 1979-1980 timetable:-

This timetable was produced using the following publications:-
Section CG British Railways London Midland Region Working Timetable of Mandatory Train Services between Crewe & Gretna Jn., Weaver Jn. & Liverpool, Skipton & Carlisle & branches 14 May, 1979 to 11 May 1980.
Section CS British Railways London Midland Region Working Timetable of Conditional Train Services between Crewe, Edge Hill, Carlisle & branches. Skipton, Carlisle, Gretna Jn. & branches 06 October 1980 to 10 May 1980.
Section GB BR Scottish Region WTT of Mandatory Train Services between Carlisle, Glasgow Cen., Edinburgh & Branches 14th May, 1979 - 11th May, 1980.

Additional publications used:-
Carlisle Station Working Book 14 May 1979 to 11 May 1980 (incl. Penmanshiel diversions) manually annotated by Mr. W. Taylor, signaller at Carlisle PSB.
BR LMR Passenger Train Marshalling Circular dated 14th May, 1979 - 11th May, 1980.
London Midland Region Trip Notice Preston Divisional Managers Area 01st June, 1981 until further notice & the 1978 Preston Divisional Managers Area Trip Notice 01st June, 1978 UFN.
Freight Train Loads Book May 1979 & May 1980.

Kingmoor Yard, Carlisle is situated 3 miles north of Citadel station on the 'down' side of the main line. Kingmoor Yard was the largest out of all the hump marshalling yards built during the modernisation plan of British Railways in 1955. There are several daily local trip workings worked by Cl.08 shunters to a variety of destinations around Carlisle to locations such as Longtown, Brunthill, London Road, Currcok & Upperby, with other trip workings going further afield to Eastriggs, Wigton & Workington.
Carlisle also has more maintenance facilities than most other locations. Carlisle Kingmoor Depot (KM) was the largest facility for traction units. Although AC electric locos were stabled there the roads inside the shed were not electrified. Diesel maintenance on locomotives & DMUs were carried out at Kingmoor Depot. There is a servicing facility less than a mile north of Kingmoor TMD, on the panel it is referred to as the F&I Point where diesel locos that worked into & out of Kingmoor Yard were fuelled, watered & where light repairs were carried out. Upperby TMD is where the coaching stock was stabled & maintained & also the main stabling point for AC electric traction units.
Currock is a wagon repair depot where work on wagons was carried out.
Colliers Lane Sidings was used to stable the Motorail vehicles & there was also a Coal Concentration Depot there which dealt with household coal.
Upperby Yard also comprised of a terminal for Blue Circle cement & was served by a train from Earles Sidings.
The engineers sidings at Upperby was where track machines were stabled between engineering work on nights & at weekends.
Dalston Oil Terminal is served by a daily block train from Grangemouth with the empties returning later in the day.
Hardendale Quarry dispatches trains loaded with Lime for Ravenscraig steel works conveyed in bogie iron ore tippler wagons. Hardendale Quarry is unusual in the sense that it is wired & as a result AC electric traction can work into the terminal.
The Ministry of Defence has 2 main terminals for MOD traffic. These are at Eastriggs & Longtown & are served daily by local trips from Kingmoor Yard.
Freight trains to & from Kingmoor Yard from Healey Mills via the S&C & from Tyne Yard are mainly mixed freights conveying large amounts of coal bound for Scotland with empties returning in the opposite direction. There are a number of trains running from the Tyne-Tees area bound for Workington conveying iron ore for the manufacture of steel at Workington & a train of hot rolled coil also bound for Workington. Workington steel works was one of the main plants in the UK where the manufacture of rails for the railway network was done.

Loco Diagrams:-
I've added the loco diagrams which I've got for this period & these are shown in the train description. An exanple is shown below:-
(No.113 - diagram number - TI/TO - depot where class of loco are allocated - Cl.45/0 - class of loco).

Loco Diagrams used:-
BR Eastern Region Loco Programme York Depot Cl.31, Cl.45/0
BR Eastern Region Main Line Loco Programme Gateshead Depot Cl.40
BR London Midland Region Mandatory Loco Programme Carlisle Depot Cl.40
BR Eastern Region Mandatory Loco Programme Tinsley Depot Cl.45
BR Eastern Region Main Line Loco Programme Gateshead Depot Cl.46
BR Eastern Region Loco Programme York Depot Cl.55
BR London Midland Region Mandatory Loco Programme Willesden Depot Cl.86
BR London Midland Region Mandadatory Loco Programme Willesden TMD Cl.87

Cl.87 locos were fitted with multiple working from new & both loco diagrams shown on freightliner workings. However Cl.86 locos were not fitted with multiple working & are shown 'IN TANDEM' which means there was a driver on each engine. Other trains may also show 'IN TANDEM with both loco diagrams.

As time progresses & I get more loco diagrams these will be added into this timetable & an updated version of this timetable will be released.

Headcodes:
CSTP - Carlisle Station Pilot
KDST - Kingmoor Depot Shunt
KMDP - Kingmoor Depot Pilot
KMPx - Kingmoor Pilot
CLST - Upperby Yard Loco Shunt

Abbreviations-
LM Stock - London Midland region Coaching Stock
ER Stock - Eastern region coaching Stock
WR Stock - Western Region Region Coaching Stock
Sc. R Stock - Scottish region Coaching Stock
[div.] - diverted train
[STN] - Special Traffic Notice train
(Cl.81-Cl.87/Cl.47) or (Cl.47/Cl.81-Cl.87) - trains which change traction types at Carlisle for running via the GS&W line.

LOCO & UNIT DEPOT CODES
AN - Allerton TMD
AY - Ayr TMD
BR - Bristol Bath Road TMD
BS - Bescot TMD
CD - Crewe Diesel Depot
CE - Crewe Electric Depot
CF - Cardiff Canton TMD
CW - Cricklewood TMD
ED - Eastfield TMD (Glasgow)
FP - Finsbury Park TMD
GD - Gateshead TMD
GW - Glasgow Shields Road
HA - Haymarket (Edinburgh)
HM - Healey Mills TMD
HT - Heaton T&RSMD
IM - Immingham TMD
IS - Inverness TMD
KD - Carlisle Kingmoor TMD
LA - Laira TMD (Plymouth)
LE - Landore TMD (Swansea)
LG - Longsight Electric Depot
LO - Longsight Diesel Depot
ML - Motherwell TMD
MR - March TMD
NH - Newton Heath TMD
OC - Old Oak Common TMD
SF - Stratford TMD
SP - Springs Branch (Wigan)
TE - Thornaby TMD
TI - Tinsley TMD
TO - Toton TMD
WN - Willesden TMD
YK - York TMD

Trains taken from Special Traffic Notices don't have platforms numbers allocated for there stop at Carlisle station. The signaler on Panel 'B' will signal train into any vacant platform as required.

FREIGHT TAGGING
00Z - Carlisle NPCCS
02C - Aberdeen
02F - Elgin
02K - Keith
022 - Aberdeen
03K - Kirkcaldy
03M - Montrose
03R - Laurencekirk
03W - Montrose
03X - Dundee
03Y - Dundee FLT
031 - Dundee
032 - Perth
04E - Oxwellmains
04Y - Edinburgh FLT
042 - Millerhill
05L - Larbert
04B - Bathgate
04E - Oxwellmains
06X - Sighthill
07B - Beattock
07C - Coatbridge FLT
07E - Lugton
07K - Elderslie
07S - Glasgow FLT
07V - Law Jn
072 - Mossend
073 - Mossend
074 - Mossend Down Goods
075 - Mossend Up
076 - Mossend Up 35mph
077 - Mossend Down Mineral
078 - Mossend Down West
079 - Mossend Down 35mph
080 - Falkland Jn. F.
082 - Falkalnd Jn.
08Q - Stranraer
08R - Stranraer
900/901/902 - Dumfries
09A - Skipton
09E - Dumfries
09F - Hardendale
09N - New Biggin
090 - Carlisle
091 - Carlisle 35mph
092 - Carlisle
13Y - Newcastle FLT
130 - Tyne
132 - Tyne
170 - Hunslet
180 - Healey Mills F.
181 - Healey Mills
212 - Immingham
232 - Doncaster
250 - Tinsley (Incl. 34E Earles)
290 - Blackburn
292 - Blackburn
350 - Warrington
352 - Warrington
452 - Peterborough
462 - Whitemoor
492 - Ipswich
49Q - Parkeston Quay
52Y - Stratford FLT
54Y - King's Cross FLT
560 - Toton F
560 - Toton UF
622 - Luton
65K - Kidderminster
650 - Bescot
652 - Bescot
72Y - Willesden FLT
722 - Willesden
723 - Willesden
732 - Acton
762 - Severn Tunnel Jn. Down
763 - Severn Tunnel Jn. Up
764 - Severn Tunnel Jn. Down
765 - Severn Tunnel Jn. Up
77P - Cardiff FLT
772 - Cardiff
81F - Bristol FLT
860 - Eastleigh
88P - Plumstead
89F - Dover

Last edited: 13/08/2018 at 12:17 by 58050
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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 12/08/2018 at 23:50 #110965
postal
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This is a complex timetable and is challenging for experienced users when running as a single user rather than in a multiplay session.

The TT has been written to include all of the trains in a typical week so that every day in the TT is different depending on which day trains are scheduled to run. When you open the sim you can either select a TT to run on one of the days of the week or the generic TT which will then randomly start on one of the five days. The dated TTs include all of the trains for the five days but are locked to load the selected day then run the appropriate trains.

Because the shunt moves (particularly in regard to the Citadel station pilots) differ from day to day, there is a full set of simplifiers showing the moves required each day for the Trip and Pilot workings towards the foot of the simulation manual on the Wiki. It is recommended that you have the relevant pages to hand when you run the sim.

Because the TT is complex and has been manually created, there are bound to be typos and errors that still remain despite the hundreds of hours of testing that have gone into the TT. Please accept Pascal's and my apologies for these errors. We will do our best to put any errors right if they can be reported here.

"No question is too stupid, there are just some stupid answers" - Dr. Michael Reece, 12/08/1927 - 03/06/2019. Electrical engineer and inventor
Last edited: 13/08/2018 at 00:27 by postal
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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 13/08/2018 at 00:07 #110968
RainbowNines
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postal in post 110965 said:
This is a complex timetable and is challenging for experienced users.

The TT has been written to include all of the trains in a typical week so that every day in the TT is different depending on which day trains are scheduled to run. When you open the sim you can either select a TT to run on one of the days of the week or the generic TT which will then randomly start on one of the five days. The dated TTs include all of the trains for the five days but are locked to load the selected day then run the appropriate trains.

Because the shunt moves (particularly in regard to the Citadel station pilots) differ from day to day, there is a full set of simplifiers showing the moves required each day for the Trip and Pilot workings towards the foot of the simulation manual on the Wiki. It is recommended that you have the relevant pages to hand when you run the sim.

Because the TT is complex and has been manually created, there are bound to be typos and errors that still remain despite the hundreds of hours of testing that have gone into the TT. Please accept Pascal's and my apologies for these errors. We will do our best to put any errors right if they can be reported here.
Absolutely delighted to see your hard work see the light of day - I can’t wait to get my teeth into it! Cheers!

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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 13/08/2018 at 08:11 #110972
kbarber
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Just reading the description makes this look like a stinker... you've excelled yourselves gents.

One very minor note with the tags... the Willesden tags altered slightly (certainly by late 1983) to 721 and 728 (Willesden North and Willesden South respectively). The north & south designations were nothing to do with destination in the Willesden area, but to signify whether the traffic then went out northwards (I can't recall how much of the Eastern Region that covered, but I suspect quite a bit) or southwards (Southern Region, basically, plus a few southerly bits of the Eastern until Acton Yard closed for Speedlink marshalling in late 1984).

Takes me back a *long* time!

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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 13/08/2018 at 10:49 #110973
VInce
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Excellent work, Pascal and the testers.

I've got as far as 0230 and whilst it is an intense timetable, the challenging thing for me was keeping track of where the various shunts were with the postals and parcels

I got to know the Carlisle area quite well during the 1999 Appleby blockage where I was one of the EWS Ops Managers so its good to see this in loader form now.

Thanks everyone for their efforts with this. I know from personal experience how much testing goes into a five day timetable and this must have been an interesting challenge.

Vince

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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 13/08/2018 at 11:16 #110974
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Thanks for your comments about this timetable,. I may have written the timetable, but John(postal) is by far the real master of this timetable as he's played it hundreds of times. You could call him 'YODA' on this one. He could probably play it blindfolded. Also John has created an excellent excel document which is included in the package of timetables which lists comprehensively all the pilot movesments. I started writing this timetable probably 7 - 8 years ago now because I had thje actual station working book owned by signaller W.J. Taylor at Carlisle PSB. He was the signaller that re-routed a divided freightliner train away from Citadel station which would have caused significant damage to the station & no doubt loss of life. Tom dedicated this sim to him & it made sense doing this timetable as the Penmanshiel diversions werer actually hand written in the arrival & departure book by him. This in turn makes the timetable some what more challenging. Even whilst testing one developer said the Carlisle 1979-41980 timetable made King's Cross 1985 timetable look like a baby's toy. It's certainly a hectic timetable especially overnight with all the motorail , sleeper, postal, parcels & newspaper traffic oh & not to forget the freightliner & freight trains to boot. Compared to the 1st release this edition is by far alot more accurate & runs much more smoothly. But be warned if you make an error you'll pay for it.
Keith the tagging have come from the LMR 1981 edition of the Marshalling of freight trains book I have & the 1981 Eastern Region Freight train marshalling book I've also got. This timetable will take a long time to finish as I can't quite manage this timetable at times at 1:1.5 speed.

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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 13/08/2018 at 11:27 #110975
Splodge
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Up to 0315 and remembering why I enjoyed this TT so much!

One question as it's something I haven't seen before - what do the question marks within instructions mean/refer to? For example, I have 5P01 heading to Carlisle, and its first instruction on arrival is N?:4P01. Is it related to decisions/conditions?

There's the right way, the wrong way and the railway.
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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 13/08/2018 at 12:14 #110978
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Can't really help you with regards to the '?' character as AFAIK that's something John9postal) must have added in as I don't recall ever seeing it in the timetable when testing.
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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 13/08/2018 at 12:16 #110979
tjfrancis
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Splodge in post 110975 said:
Up to 0315 and remembering why I enjoyed this TT so much!

One question as it's something I haven't seen before - what do the question marks within instructions mean/refer to? For example, I have 5P01 heading to Carlisle, and its first instruction on arrival is N?:4P01. Is it related to decisions/conditions?

I think it may have something with the Joining train getting Lost As i seen this on other trains.

I am dyslexic so please consider this when reading my posts
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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 13/08/2018 at 12:43 #110980
jc92
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tjfrancis in post 110979 said:
Splodge in post 110975 said:
Up to 0315 and remembering why I enjoyed this TT so much!

One question as it's something I haven't seen before - what do the question marks within instructions mean/refer to? For example, I have 5P01 heading to Carlisle, and its first instruction on arrival is N?:4P01. Is it related to decisions/conditions?

I think it may have something with the Joining train getting Lost As i seen this on other trains.
It's decision related. To build on that. In the raw timetable it may have several new 4P01s that can be formed depending on day (or a different headcode completely) . The? Indicates a, new working hasn't been decided yet.

Last edited: 13/08/2018 at 13:46 by jc92
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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 13/08/2018 at 16:34 #110998
lazzer
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Having played the original 79/80 TT many times, I can safely say that my life is over for the next few weeks as I try to get my head around this complete re-write.

I knew you wouldn't let us down.

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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 13/08/2018 at 20:56 #111013
postal
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Forgot to add that the TT analyser shows 134 warnings (although thankfully no errors). All of these warnings are known and understood. They do not affect the operation of the sim or TT. Most of the warnings are due to the conditional shunt moves. If there is a choice of actions in a train's TT (e.g. next working is 1A00 if the Monday decision had been called but 1B00 on the other days of the week), then the analyser only takes the first action into account. In the hypothetical example, anything "downstream" of the formation of 1B00 could well appear as a warning although there is actually nothing wrong with any of the subsequent TTs or actions.

If you do find a warning allied to anything that does cause a problem with the sim, please report it here so that things can be investigated.

"No question is too stupid, there are just some stupid answers" - Dr. Michael Reece, 12/08/1927 - 03/06/2019. Electrical engineer and inventor
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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 14/08/2018 at 09:41 #111025
kbarber
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58050 in post 110974 said:

Keith the tagging have come from the LMR 1981 edition of the Marshalling of freight trains book I have & the 1981 Eastern Region Freight train marshalling book I've also got. This timetable will take a long time to finish as I can't quite manage this timetable at times at 1:1.5 speed.
I suspected as much... I think quite a bit changed at Willesden between '81 and when I took charge in the Brent in late '83, as Sudbury Hump progressively closed and Willesden became more & more the main London node for the Speedlink network. Mind you, I'm not really sure quite how much that 721/728 division really contributed to the working of the yard, as either might need to be shunted at either end. The tags that really mattered were those that were carried through from a preceding yard (like the 89Fs or, more particularly, the 88Ps - they were real priority).

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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 15/08/2018 at 19:52 #111080
Dick
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I missed that 4S38 was booked for a crew change in Carlisle SA and routed it goods line by mistake. It didn't call in and trundled off to Lockerbie quite happily without stepping up timetable.
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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 15/08/2018 at 23:43 #111095
Steamer
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I'm finding that most, if not all, Up departures from Carlisle Yard aren't allowed enough time between entering the simulation and passing Caldew Jn- most are losing about 2 minutes, even though they're running on clear signals. 6M63 is one such train that I've explicitly checked, but the timings do seem tight for the rest.
"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 15/08/2018 at 23:56 #111098
GeoffM
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Steamer in post 111095 said:
I'm finding that most, if not all, Up departures from Carlisle Yard aren't allowed enough time between entering the simulation and passing Caldew Jn- most are losing about 2 minutes, even though they're running on clear signals. 6M63 is one such train that I've explicitly checked, but the timings do seem tight for the rest.
Just a thought: are the TT timings actually realistic? (I don't know). I remember St. Pancras to Cricklewood timings in the 1980s were way too optimistic but nobody seemed to care that every down train was 2-3 minutes late. I believe it was even proved mathematically to be impossible.

SimSig Boss
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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 16/08/2018 at 07:51 #111105
jc92
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GeoffM in post 111098 said:
Steamer in post 111095 said:
I'm finding that most, if not all, Up departures from Carlisle Yard aren't allowed enough time between entering the simulation and passing Caldew Jn- most are losing about 2 minutes, even though they're running on clear signals. 6M63 is one such train that I've explicitly checked, but the timings do seem tight for the rest.
Just a thought: are the TT timings actually realistic? (I don't know). I remember St. Pancras to Cricklewood timings in the 1980s were way too optimistic but nobody seemed to care that every down train was 2-3 minutes late. I believe it was even proved mathematically to be impossible.


I think the problem here (and with several other timetables) is Where is the train timetabled to pass or leave Carlisle yard? Say for instance it's timetable says it departs 10:15. Is that 10:15 it leaves its recessing siding or 10:15 it exits the yard overall and enters the mainline?

I beleive its the latter which is why trains are loosing time.

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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 16/08/2018 at 13:33 #111114
58050
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Joe makes a good point regarding the departure time from Kingmoor marshalling yard. Kingmoor marshalling yard was the largest yard on the UK railway network. So in the Mandatory or Conditional WTT it gives the location as to what part of the yard the train departs from, but there aren't any specific timings points in any BR publication which give details of how long trains take from departing the yard to when they enter onto Carlisle PSB. So trains losing a bit of time is something you'd have to live with I'm afraid. All I'd say to Steamer is the fact that the name of the game with SimSig & signallers back in the BR era was to keep the traffic moving within the safety parameters, but you'd struggle to find anywhere on the network where line converged & was very busy with traffic where you could get everything through right time. Yes I can definately confirm that the timings in the 1979-1980 Carlisle timetable are all as per the WTTs used. The only exception is trip workings where the trip notice only shows the departure time from the originating location & the terminating time at the destination location. Anything in between is either a guesstimate, or timings have been added during testing or timing copied from another similar train type. Thats why I tend to just leave the intermeadiate timings blank.
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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 16/08/2018 at 14:13 #111120
Steamer
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58050 in post 111114 said:
Joe makes a good point regarding the departure time from Kingmoor marshalling yard. Kingmoor marshalling yard was the largest yard on the UK railway network. So in the Mandatory or Conditional WTT it gives the location as to what part of the yard the train departs from, but there aren't any specific timings points in any BR publication which give details of how long trains take from departing the yard to when they enter onto Carlisle PSB. So trains losing a bit of time is something you'd have to live with I'm afraid. All I'd say to Steamer is the fact that the name of the game with SimSig & signallers back in the BR era was to keep the traffic moving within the safety parameters, but you'd struggle to find anywhere on the network where line converged & was very busy with traffic where you could get everything through right time. Yes I can definately confirm that the timings in the 1979-1980 Carlisle timetable are all as per the WTTs used.
Given that it takes 2-3 minutes between a train entering the simulation and the train passing CE484/CE485, and that a 2-3 minute delay at Caldew is virtually guaranteed, I think there's a strong argument that the timetable considers 'departing the yard' to mean passing signals 484/485. Also, wouldn't the Kingmoor Yard signaller/shunters consider the departure time to be the time at which the train leaves their control, rather than the time it starts moving out of an internal siding?

I fully accept that timetable conflicts can and do happen, especially with the diverted ECML services knocking around.

"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
Last edited: 16/08/2018 at 14:14 by Steamer
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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 16/08/2018 at 15:57 #111130
58050
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Well the only thing I can relate to is looking at the Kingmoor Marshalling yard plan it certainly wouldn't be guaranteed that the same trains would sit on the same roads in the yard everyday. That would change almost certinly daily. For me I'd say the departure time in the WTT irrespective of where the train is standing in the yard is the booked time that that train should start on the move. You could use the arguement you say about losing time pretty much to everymajor marshalling yard in the country. When i was Trainsmaster at Bescot for example MGR trains destined for loading at Daw Mill Colliery or any other for that fact were always stabled in the Down Storage Sdgs. Now the speed limit being 15mph in the yard & more often than not the trains usually ran at around 10 mph it would have to travel around the Down Sorting Sdgs & wouldn't appear on Walsall PSBs panel until it reached the c berth for the signal exiting the yard. So the train could take at least 5 minutes or more before it rached the end of the yard. In the Carlisle sim I would imagine the additional work Tom would have had to add into the sim to replicate trains departing the yard from the various locations arund the complex would be too much. Yes I noticed when testing the timetable once Kingmoor Yard had been re-worked that trains did take a few minutes to appear on the panel despite the train describer lighting up the TD, but in all fairness that to me is more realistic as the train wouldn't certainly appear on No.1 or No.2 departure line the instnce it set off. I doubt very much if the issue you mention is ever going to be resolved timetable wise. I know John when he managed to complete his first run through achieved 95%+ in his score & anybody getting a score in the 90%+ range would be doing excellently bearing in mind the complexity of the timetable.
It will be interesting to see in the future as I've got all the documentation & station workings books, trip notices to do a 1981-1982 set of timetables for Glasgow Central, Motherwell, Carlisle, Preston, Warrington & Crewe if the same problem persists in all those sims with large yards.
Kingmoor msrahalling yard was signalled by 2 towers(Up & Down)also bear in mind that the loco movements off the F&I point go into the yard via No.1 & No.2. You could & I dare it happened all too regularly where engines coming off the F&I point to work trains forward from the yard could well get in the way of trains departing south. Obviously trains exiting the yard heading north didn't have that problem, but certainly trains heading south. I'll dig out the WTTs tomorrow & tell you what location the actuyal yard departure time lists & you'll see by that where exactly that relates to. I can't remember without looking whether there are any recovery allowances in the WTT for trains departing Kingmoor in the UP direction, but unless you're able to use the yard location name as the 1st tt data line you can't add in any recovery time & hence that is lost. Some devlopers use the entry location as the 1st tt data line for example on the LTS sim trains entering from Woodgrange Park you have to use that location as the 1st one in the tt data as well, so if the WTT shows any recovery time at Woodgrange Park that can be added, whereas if Woodgrange Park is the entry location & can't use the entry location name for the 1st timetable data location then any recovery time in the WTT can't be added.

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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 16/08/2018 at 16:51 #111133
DriverCurran
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Steamer in post 111120 said:
58050 in post 111114 said:
Joe makes a good point regarding the departure time from Kingmoor marshalling yard. Kingmoor marshalling yard was the largest yard on the UK railway network. So in the Mandatory or Conditional WTT it gives the location as to what part of the yard the train departs from, but there aren't any specific timings points in any BR publication which give details of how long trains take from departing the yard to when they enter onto Carlisle PSB. So trains losing a bit of time is something you'd have to live with I'm afraid. All I'd say to Steamer is the fact that the name of the game with SimSig & signallers back in the BR era was to keep the traffic moving within the safety parameters, but you'd struggle to find anywhere on the network where line converged & was very busy with traffic where you could get everything through right time. Yes I can definately confirm that the timings in the 1979-1980 Carlisle timetable are all as per the WTTs used.
Given that it takes 2-3 minutes between a train entering the simulation and the train passing CE484/CE485, and that a 2-3 minute delay at Caldew is virtually guaranteed, I think there's a strong argument that the timetable considers 'departing the yard' to mean passing signals 484/485. Also, wouldn't the Kingmoor Yard signaller/shunters consider the departure time to be the time at which the train leaves their control, rather than the time it starts moving out of an internal siding?

I fully accept that timetable conflicts can and do happen, especially with the diverted ECML services knocking around.
Steamer, Although this is very much now the modern era, at one of the locations I have under my watch from the ivory tower of power the departure time shown in all the publications and on our tracking system is the time that the train is booked off the stops. Each train then has a good twenty minutes before it even dreams of presenting itself at the departure signal, and it also gives a good grounding in telephone discipline to stop yourself ringing the yard movement co-ordinator to find out why the train is 15 minutes late.

To bring it back to sims, when I do the Brighton 1982/83 wtt (Usual time scales apply!!!!) then trains from Lovers Walk Depot will present at the exit signal 10 minutes after their 'booked' time from the depot, it seems trains are given 15 minutes to go stops to stops.

Paul

You have to get a red before you can get any other colour
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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 16/08/2018 at 17:05 #111135
jc92
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2758 posts
DriverCurran in post 111133 said:
Steamer in post 111120 said:
58050 in post 111114 said:
Joe makes a good point regarding the departure time from Kingmoor marshalling yard. Kingmoor marshalling yard was the largest yard on the UK railway network. So in the Mandatory or Conditional WTT it gives the location as to what part of the yard the train departs from, but there aren't any specific timings points in any BR publication which give details of how long trains take from departing the yard to when they enter onto Carlisle PSB. So trains losing a bit of time is something you'd have to live with I'm afraid. All I'd say to Steamer is the fact that the name of the game with SimSig & signallers back in the BR era was to keep the traffic moving within the safety parameters, but you'd struggle to find anywhere on the network where line converged & was very busy with traffic where you could get everything through right time. Yes I can definately confirm that the timings in the 1979-1980 Carlisle timetable are all as per the WTTs used.
Given that it takes 2-3 minutes between a train entering the simulation and the train passing CE484/CE485, and that a 2-3 minute delay at Caldew is virtually guaranteed, I think there's a strong argument that the timetable considers 'departing the yard' to mean passing signals 484/485. Also, wouldn't the Kingmoor Yard signaller/shunters consider the departure time to be the time at which the train leaves their control, rather than the time it starts moving out of an internal siding?

I fully accept that timetable conflicts can and do happen, especially with the diverted ECML services knocking around.
Steamer, Although this is very much now the modern era, at one of the locations I have under my watch from the ivory tower of power the departure time shown in all the publications and on our tracking system is the time that the train is booked off the stops. Each train then has a good twenty minutes before it even dreams of presenting itself at the departure signal, and it also gives a good grounding in telephone discipline to stop yourself ringing the yard movement co-ordinator to find out why the train is 15 minutes late.

To bring it back to sims, when I do the Brighton 1982/83 wtt (Usual time scales apply!!!!) then trains from Lovers Walk Depot will present at the exit signal 10 minutes after their 'booked' time from the depot, it seems trains are given 15 minutes to go stops to stops.

Paul
Cricklewood yard is a good example of this. EMUs get loads of time to get in and out which allows for it to enter through the carriage washer, queue for cleaning and run through the washer.

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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 16/08/2018 at 17:08 #111136
postal
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3977 posts
58050 in post 111130 said:
I know John when he managed to complete his first run through achieved 95%+ in his score & anybody getting a score in the 90%+ range would be doing excellently bearing in mind the complexity of the timetable.
The 95%+ plus was with no delays, no failures and before we'd got all of the crew changes set in. Running single handed on the simplest settings it is possible to get into the low 90s with the published TT but you have to be on top of your game for the full 24 hours.

"No question is too stupid, there are just some stupid answers" - Dr. Michael Reece, 12/08/1927 - 03/06/2019. Electrical engineer and inventor
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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 16/08/2018 at 17:42 #111138
GeoffM
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4708 posts
DriverCurran in post 111133 said:

To bring it back to sims, when I do the Brighton 1982/83 wtt (Usual time scales apply!!!!) then trains from Lovers Walk Depot will present at the exit signal 10 minutes after their 'booked' time from the depot, it seems trains are given 15 minutes to go stops to stops.
This was the example I was going to give! Agreed - the Lovers Walk time is pretty much for the train to start moving within the depot. Due to a bit of back and forth (shunting) within the depot, the train may not present to Three Bridges until 10-15 minutes later. But the point is the yard departure time here is from rest, not the time at the exit signal.

SimSig Boss
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