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Reversing at Montrose

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Reversing at Montrose 15/03/2019 at 15:56 #116389
altern8or
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Hi, have been playing SimSig for some time now and finally taking the plunge to write timetables starting with a 2019 timetable for North East Scotland.

The first issue I am experiencing is how to do the reverse move at Montrose as there are now several Aberdeen-Montrose trains per day. As I understand it, a loco goes South to Montrose platform 1 where it sets down then moves forward and reverses back into the #1 siding where it waits for approx 30 minutes. That part I can achieve on the sim.

The next move is that the train that was berthed moves forward to the single line section towards Usan Junction then reverses back North onto platform 2 to pick up and continue back to Aberdeen. This part I cannot seem to replicate on SimSig.

Any ideas?

Thanks in advance,
Robert


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Reversing at Montrose 15/03/2019 at 16:00 #116392
MarkC
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You can use the single line as a reversing point. It is the same location that you have currently selected in the timetable, it allows either the headshunt or the single line to be used as the reversing location.
It's not my fault! I was left unsupervised.
Last edited: 15/03/2019 at 16:02 by MarkC
Reason: None given

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Reversing at Montrose 15/03/2019 at 16:05 #116393
altern8or
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Wow thank you for your quick reply, I will try that now, cheers!
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Reversing at Montrose 17/03/2019 at 21:03 #116433
altern8or
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That worked, thank you. Another query i have is that there appears to be 4 trains to seed at Perth platform 5 which depart at intervals as follows:

2K24 @ 0513
5G20 @ 0523
5K26 @ 0533
5A43 @ 0540

What is the best way to set the timetable so that these line up in the right order at Perth platform 5 please?
At the moment I have a train which seeds, then splits 3 times, it's not pretty but it does sort of work.

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Reversing at Montrose 17/03/2019 at 21:14 #116434
Steamer
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It's almost certainly the case that there are non-timetabled shunt moves from Perth Up Carriage Sidings which form most, if not all, of those workings. I'd also be inclined to take platform numbers with a pinch of salt as well- if you look at the schedule per RTT, there are about 8 trains booked from P5 before any train arrives in the morning, and none from P6.
"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Reversing at Montrose 17/03/2019 at 21:21 #116435
altern8or
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Yeah that could well be the case, I’ll have another look and see if I can make it a little more realistic even if it’s not exactly what happens IRL, thank you.
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Reversing at Montrose 17/03/2019 at 21:59 #116436
Hap
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altern8or in post 116433 said:
That worked, thank you. Another query i have is that there appears to be 4 trains to seed at Perth platform 5 which depart at intervals as follows:

2K24 @ 0513
5G20 @ 0523
5K26 @ 0533
5A43 @ 0540

What is the best way to set the timetable so that these line up in the right order at Perth platform 5 please?
At the moment I have a train which seeds, then splits 3 times, it's not pretty but it does sort of work.
2k24 Leaves from 7 most days. (1 x 170/6)
5G20 varies between C/S or platforms 4/5/6. (1 x 170/4)
5K26 left from platform 4 on Thursday (I was working it) (1 x 158/7)
5A43 was a shunt from 3 - 2 the other day. Really just depends how the station has been set up during the night shift and what set needs to be going where etc.

5L51 is a 6 car (170) shunt and splits on platform 2. 5L51 front set ECS to DEE and the rear set used for the 06:42 (2L91) PTH - ARB.
5A53 is a booked HST ECS move to QST. It depends if there is a competent night shift driver on for it to do its booked shunt into the Carriage sidings at night, otherwise it gets put into the North end of 4 by the driver that brought it in from QST the day before after fuelling.

As said, there're a lot of non TT movements around perth, normally running under 5Y00 headcodes. We just talk to the signaller before each move and tell him where we need to go and he will tell us how he's gonna route us.

If you can wait until Wednesday this week, I can grab a start of work sheet for that day. I can then give you every ECS movement that morning.

Craig

HAP
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Reversing at Montrose 20/03/2019 at 17:00 #116465
Hap
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Hi. As of today.

0508 1H03 Perth - Inverness. 2 x 158, PL 7
0513 2K24 Perth - EDB. 1 x 170, PL 4
0518 1T02 Perth - GLQ. 1 x 158, PL 6
0523 5G29 Perth - MNC. 1 x 170, PL3
0533 5K26 PTH - KDY, 1 x 158, PL 6
0540 5A43 PTH - PTH (PL2) , 1 x 170, C/S
(Forms 0600 1A43)
0550 5G22 PTH - MNC, 1 x 170, C/S
0601 5G16 PTH - DFE, 1 x 170, PL 4
0606 5L51 PTH - DEE, 2 x 170, C/S (shunts to platform 2 where it splits, the rest set makes 0642 2L91 PTH - ARB)
0614 2G32 PTH - EDB, 2 x 170, PL 3
0630 1P08 PTH - EDB, 1 x 158 (rear) & 1 x 170 (Front), PL 5.
0647 5A53 (caped) normally HST to Glasgow. Normally C/S but has been 5 or 4 though wouldn’t fit on 5/4 today.

0655 1B05 PTH - EDB, 1 x 170, PL 6
0702 2N48 PTH - GLQ, 2 x 170, PL 4.

That’s today’s workings. Hope this helps.

HAP
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Reversing at Montrose 21/03/2019 at 23:03 #116515
altern8or
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That is a huge help and thank you so much for providing this info. I will be working on the timetable again in a few days and hopefully get something out fairly soon after that.
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Reversing at Montrose 25/03/2019 at 07:23 #116660
clive
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altern8or in post 116433 said:
That worked, thank you. Another query i have is that there appears to be 4 trains to seed at Perth platform 5 which depart at intervals as follows:

2K24 @ 0513
5G20 @ 0523
5K26 @ 0533
5A43 @ 0540

What is the best way to set the timetable so that these line up in the right order at Perth platform 5 please?
At the moment I have a train which seeds, then splits 3 times, it's not pretty but it does sort of work.
All seeded trains are set up at the start of the simulation. If they're all in the same signal block, then splitting a single seed train is your only option.

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Reversing at Montrose 09/05/2019 at 12:58 #118165
Snotri
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altern8or in post 116389 said:
Hi, have been playing SimSig for some time now and finally taking the plunge to write timetables starting with a 2019 timetable for North East Scotland.

The first issue I am experiencing is how to do the reverse move at Montrose as there are now several Aberdeen-Montrose trains per day. As I understand it, a loco goes South to Montrose platform 1 where it sets down then moves forward and reverses back into the #1 siding where it waits for approx 30 minutes. That part I can achieve on the sim.

The next move is that the train that was berthed moves forward to the single line section towards Usan Junction then reverses back North onto platform 2 to pick up and continue back to Aberdeen. This part I cannot seem to replicate on SimSig.

Any ideas?

Thanks in advance,
Robert

Hi, i am writing a timetable for the Aberdeen Crossrail too. So i had the same problem as you had. How did u solve it out?
When i understand the shunting moves correct, the train just leaves the main rout and waits at the through siding. When i understand your move correctly, you let the train reverse at the HS and back it up to siding no.1. But this is an exit point and in reality there is no reversing at this point, when i understand it correctly.
After the defined time, the train will leave the through siding and reverse at signal MN38, at the single line.
I cant replicate this move, because the sim has no location through siding.
A work-around may be the reentry at siding #1 and than reverse at the bridge.

Excuse my bad writing, i am a native german speaker...

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Reversing at Montrose 09/05/2019 at 16:40 #118170
Hap
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Snotri in post 118165 said:
altern8or in post 116389 said:
Hi, have been playing SimSig for some time now and finally taking the plunge to write timetables starting with a 2019 timetable for North East Scotland.

The first issue I am experiencing is how to do the reverse move at Montrose as there are now several Aberdeen-Montrose trains per day. As I understand it, a loco goes South to Montrose platform 1 where it sets down then moves forward and reverses back into the #1 siding where it waits for approx 30 minutes. That part I can achieve on the sim.

The next move is that the train that was berthed moves forward to the single line section towards Usan Junction then reverses back North onto platform 2 to pick up and continue back to Aberdeen. This part I cannot seem to replicate on SimSig.

Any ideas?

Thanks in advance,
Robert

Hi, i am writing a timetable for the Aberdeen Crossrail too. So i had the same problem as you had. How did u solve it out?
When i understand the shunting moves correct, the train just leaves the main rout and waits at the through siding. When i understand your move correctly, you let the train reverse at the HS and back it up to siding no.1. But this is an exit point and in reality there is no reversing at this point, when i understand it correctly.
After the defined time, the train will leave the through siding and reverse at signal MN38, at the single line.
I cant replicate this move, because the sim has no location through siding.
A work-around may be the reentry at siding #1 and than reverse at the bridge.

Excuse my bad writing, i am a native german speaker...
Is this for a modern day TT as it is today?

Our movements today are from MN5 to MN25. Then when returning to the station MN25 to within MN38 on the single line, change ends and return to platform 2.

Also, if it's a current day TT that you are writing, note that the No. 1 siding can hold a maximum of 3 carriages. HS is Harbour sidings, and we don't use this today.

Hope this helps

Craig (HAP)

HAP
Last edited: 09/05/2019 at 16:41 by Hap
Reason: None given

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Reversing at Montrose 09/05/2019 at 21:35 #118184
Steamer
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Mantis ticked #24965 has been raised to add a TT location to hold trains at MN25.
"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Reversing at Montrose 10/05/2019 at 15:19 #118193
Snotri
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Hi Craig,

thank you for your answer. Indeed, i am writing a modern TT as well as Robert is doing. Maybe we can combine our efforts.
Tha pupblic available data for the movements, for i.e. 5B13, are stationg a location called Montrose through siding #1. This location is not in the sim, as i understand it an Steamer points out in his post. So before there is an update, we have to figure out some work around.
(As for Aberdeen station too, because Guild street sidings are gone, i believe).

But my main concerns at the moment are th define the correct working classes. Wich train is a Cl158, wich Cl170, wich is a Inter7city and so on. But maybe you can help me Craig.

Some words for my motivation, writing a timetable for Scotland Ne and Central
My first time traveling to scotland is way back in the 1990th, back in British Rail times. Since then, i visited scotland some times, always going by train and now i want to simulate the much enhanced rail service in the north and i enjoy the simulated signal boxes in scotland much. They were my first contact with simsig at all and now i want to contribute some stuff.

So every help with the roling stock is much appreciated!

Christoph (Snotri), Hattersheim, Germany

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Reversing at Montrose 10/05/2019 at 15:54 #118194
Steamer
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Snotri in post 118193 said:

(As for Aberdeen station too, because Guild street sidings are gone, i believe).
The layout of the former Guild Street sidings has been simplified. Only the tracks highlighted in green in the attached image are still in use. Any trains shown to use Platform 2 at Aberdeen use these sidings. You can simply simply time trains to enter/exit from Guild Street 2 at the appropriate times. Although the sidings are shown as 'platform 2' in the timetable, the lines are still sidings- passenger trains cannot depart from them.

Quote:
But my main concerns at the moment are th define the correct working classes. Wich train is a Cl158, wich Cl170, wich is a Inter7city and so on. But maybe you can help me Craig.
The HST (or 'Inter7City' as ScotRail has branded them) diagrams are available here: https://www.125group.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/HST-Diags-SCR.pdf They run in 2+4 formation (that is four carriages with a power car at each end), as opposed to the LNER/East Coast HSTs which are 2+9.

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"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
Last edited: 10/05/2019 at 15:55 by Steamer
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Reversing at Montrose 10/05/2019 at 16:07 #118195
Snotri
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Thank you Steamer.
For Aberdeen in found this work around, but thank you very much for your image.

The link to the HST page is really nice, i did not this site until yet. Thank you.

At Aberdeen, Perth and Dundee there are a lot of shunting moves that are not shown in any puplic avaiable tt i think, as Craig already told us here. So i will do some guesses.
At the moment i have all Montrose services in a tt, so it will take some more days to finish an early release version.
Every help is welcomed.
Chris

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Reversing at Montrose 10/05/2019 at 17:11 #118197
Hap
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We don't have too many shunting moves during the day at Perth. Mainly if something has failed and needs putting into the carriage sidings. For night time shunts, you can pretty much count most sets that arrive into the station will be shunted. There is one service that comes from Edinburgh, which had originated at HYM depot. I know this set doesn't go through the wash road or get fuelled.

Right now is quite hard to determine what is going to be allocated to what diagram the next day due to various short formations as a result of HST failures or no competent staff to work them.

When we arrive in on the late night arrivals from either Edinburgh, Glasgow or Aberdeen, the night shift shunter tells us what is needing done with that set. That could be anything from detaching to attaching, wash road, fuel road, re-marshalling sets around again. It all depends on various factors.

It's what we call "Shed and Ferry"... basically working to shunters instructions as to where each unit ends up and in what formation. It is going to have to be somewhat imagination to put together workings around Perth.

In regards to the class 158 & 170.

Scotrail 158s are 2 car formations
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_158

and class 170s are 3 car formations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_170

If you are going for complete detail in regards to our HST services. We have a mix of Slam door stock and power door stock. dwell times are different for each.
The following are our two refurbished HST diagrams. (power door), all the other diagrams shown on that HST page are our traditional slam door stock. /

HA941
1B07 0548 ABD-EDB, 1A55 0929 EDB-ABD, 1B32 1312 ABD-EDB, 1A79 1627 EDB-ABD,
1B51 2009 ABD-EDB.

HA942
1A41 0530 EDB-ABD, 1B18 0904 ABD-EDB, 1A75 1230 EDB-ABD, 1B40 1600 ABD-EDB,
1A88 1934 EDB-ABD, 5A88 2008 ABD - Clayhills (CET, WASH, FUEl), 5B07 0114 Clayhills - ABD. (You can find these ECS moves on real time trains)

HAP
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Reversing at Montrose 27/06/2019 at 10:04 #119129
Snotri
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Okay, i finished the TT so far. I have some problems with shunting services at Perth, forming from and setting down. What is happening there after the trains end at plt. 5?
I raised this question in the timetable section under the topic Perth drop.

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Reversing at Montrose 02/10/2019 at 14:06 #120695
altern8or
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Hey guys, thank you for your information that is very helpful indeed. Don't worry i have not dropped the project, just that RL and Summer got in the way a bit!

One other question is a see a couple of movements 1H79 & 1H89 coming from waverley to keith and boat of garten, are these heritage trains, any idea what they are please?

Thanks for your patience!

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Reversing at Montrose 02/10/2019 at 14:09 #120696
jc92
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altern8or in post 120695 said:
Hey guys, thank you for your information that is very helpful indeed. Don't worry i have not dropped the project, just that RL and Summer got in the way a bit!

One other question is a see a couple of movements 1H79 & 1H89 coming from waverley to keith and boat of garten, are these heritage trains, any idea what they are please?

Thanks for your patience!
They are the royal scotsman. A high end land cruise that visits various places in Scotland. Not all those booked workings run every week depending on what cycle the train is on.

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Reversing at Montrose 02/10/2019 at 15:28 #120697
Hap
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jc92 in post 120696 said:
altern8or in post 120695 said:
Hey guys, thank you for your information that is very helpful indeed. Don't worry i have not dropped the project, just that RL and Summer got in the way a bit!

One other question is a see a couple of movements 1H79 & 1H89 coming from waverley to keith and boat of garten, are these heritage trains, any idea what they are please?

Thanks for your patience!
They are the royal scotsman. A high end land cruise that visits various places in Scotland. Not all those booked workings run every week depending on what cycle the train is on.
Boat of Garten, Keith, Kyle, Bridge of Orchy, Wemyss Bay to name but a few by train, also coaches from stations to other destinations.

https://www.belmond.com/trains/europe/scotland/belmond-royal-scotsman/search-results

OBSERVATION CAR 99965 319 SNIPE Lounge with open veranda at one end.
DINING CAR No.1 99967 317 RAVEN Kitchen/dining car
DINING CAR No.2 99960 321 SWIFT Kitchen/dining car
STATE CAR No.1 99961 324 AMBER 3 twin, 2 single bedrooms
STATE CAR No.2 99962 329 PEARL 4 twin bedrooms
STATE CAR No.3 99963 331 TOPAZ 4 twin bedrooms
STATE CAR No.4 99964 313 FINCH 3 twin, 2 single bedrooms
STATE CAR No.5 99968 Mk3 10541 2 twin bedrooms, 4 staff compartments, stand-by generator
SERVICE CAR 99969 Mk3 10556 7 staff compartments, mess room, generator

Either hauled by a single class 66 or top'n'tail on some specific runs. GBRF operated, 66743 & 66746 were branded into the Scotsmans livery

HAP
Last edited: 02/10/2019 at 15:36 by Hap
Reason: added some random Scotsman facts.

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Reversing at Montrose 02/10/2019 at 16:09 #120698
Ron_J
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Hap in post 120697 said:

OBSERVATION CAR 99965 319 SNIPE Lounge with open veranda at one end.
DINING CAR No.1 99967 317 RAVEN Kitchen/dining car
DINING CAR No.2 99960 321 SWIFT Kitchen/dining car
STATE CAR No.1 99961 324 AMBER 3 twin, 2 single bedrooms
STATE CAR No.2 99962 329 PEARL 4 twin bedrooms
STATE CAR No.3 99963 331 TOPAZ 4 twin bedrooms
STATE CAR No.4 99964 313 FINCH 3 twin, 2 single bedrooms
STATE CAR No.5 99968 Mk3 10541 2 twin bedrooms, 4 staff compartments, stand-by generator
SERVICE CAR 99969 Mk3 10556 7 staff compartments, mess room, generator

Either hauled by a single class 66 or top'n'tail on some specific runs. GBRF operated, 66743 & 66746 were branded into the Scotsmans livery

Since 2016 it has run with an additional vehicle to the on the above list, 99337 which has a spa/sauna and wheelchair accessible cabin inside.

Last edited: 02/10/2019 at 16:11 by Ron_J
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Reversing at Montrose 02/10/2019 at 17:38 #120701
Hap
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Ron_J in post 120698 said:
Hap in post 120697 said:

OBSERVATION CAR 99965 319 SNIPE Lounge with open veranda at one end.
DINING CAR No.1 99967 317 RAVEN Kitchen/dining car
DINING CAR No.2 99960 321 SWIFT Kitchen/dining car
STATE CAR No.1 99961 324 AMBER 3 twin, 2 single bedrooms
STATE CAR No.2 99962 329 PEARL 4 twin bedrooms
STATE CAR No.3 99963 331 TOPAZ 4 twin bedrooms
STATE CAR No.4 99964 313 FINCH 3 twin, 2 single bedrooms
STATE CAR No.5 99968 Mk3 10541 2 twin bedrooms, 4 staff compartments, stand-by generator
SERVICE CAR 99969 Mk3 10556 7 staff compartments, mess room, generator

Either hauled by a single class 66 or top'n'tail on some specific runs. GBRF operated, 66743 & 66746 were branded into the Scotsmans livery

Since 2016 it has run with an additional vehicle to the on the above list, 99337 which has a spa/sauna and wheelchair accessible cabin inside.
Is this why they have issues running T'n'T on some runs now? (Sorry, Genuinely unsure what ones run T'n'T). The current formation barely fits into pl3 at Perth when stocking up, same with stabling at Dundee on Ceilidh nights on Pl3.

HAP
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Reversing at Montrose 22/10/2019 at 07:07 #121251
Snotri
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So, i also have not dropped my attemts to recreat a 2019 TT for NE Scotland, but, after completing the reversing movments at Montrose and running several simulations, it seems difficult to recreate the movments with the current sim version.
If you use the siding, the trains are leaving the sim. So you must let them reenter and than reverse them, that was my solution.
Is there any other solution?

Maybe i can fninish the early version before the hlidays. I will try.

Thanks for any form of help!

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Reversing at Montrose 22/10/2019 at 16:20 #121264
Hap
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Snotri in post 121251 said:
So, i also have not dropped my attemts to recreat a 2019 TT for NE Scotland, but, after completing the reversing movments at Montrose and running several simulations, it seems difficult to recreate the movments with the current sim version.
If you use the siding, the trains are leaving the sim. So you must let them reenter and than reverse them, that was my solution.
Is there any other solution?

Maybe i can fninish the early version before the hlidays. I will try.

Thanks for any form of help!
Trains do not reverse into the headshunt. We go into NO.1 siding stop at signal MN25, allow what ever needs to pass and wait for time, then proceed onto the single line and turn back on the single line.

Just as an FYI. The No.1 siding line between MN25 and N21 only holds a 3 car 170 or less. A 4 car 158 does not fit by half a coach to be precise.

HAP
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