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Coming soon: multi-start timetables and seeding

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Coming soon: multi-start timetables and seeding 04/08/2019 at 12:36 #119851
TimTamToe
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Hi All

Just in the process of adding multi seeds to new and existing tt’s, thanks to Postal and Meld for their earlier posts but I just have a couple of queries of how best to implement in certain situations which are slightly different to the above.

Firstly can the same UID be used for an existing train in the 00:00 tt and a seed in a 04:45

For example I have a train 7O70FF1 entering at 04:30 which then exits the area at 04:55. A rule is in place saying that 7O70FF2 must enter x min after 7O70FF1 exits. For a multi seed start of 04:45 can I reuse the UID 7O70FF1 when it seeds at a signal or to I need to have 7O70FF1B for example.

If I need to use 7O70FF1B and add a rule saying 7O70FF2 must enter x min after 7O70FF1B exits there are then two rules:

a) 7O70FF2 must enter x min after 7O70FF1 exits and
b) 7O70FF2 must enter x min after 7O70FF1B exits

If using the later 04:45 seed tt 7O70FF1 won’t enter, but would the above rule a) prevent 7O70FF2 entering as well even if 7O70FF1B has been seeded.

If so I guess I need to add a second tt of 7O70FF2B relating to the 7O70FF1B train. Which then I guess adjacent sims would then also then the additional -B trains added with either alternative rules or decisions added for when they transfer across.

Hope this makes sense
Gareth

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Coming soon: multi-start timetables and seeding 04/08/2019 at 12:40 #119852
MarkC
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In the case you discribe above you can use the same UID for the train no need to suffix
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The following user said thank you: TimTamToe
Coming soon: multi-start timetables and seeding 04/08/2019 at 12:44 #119853
TimTamToe
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MarkC in post 119852 said:
In the case you discribe above you can use the same UID for the train no need to suffix
Thanks for your extremely quick reply Mark. That certainly saves my grey matter trying to work out a multitude of permutations across a few sims

Cheers
Gareth

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The following user said thank you: MarkC
Coming soon: multi-start timetables and seeding 04/08/2019 at 12:50 #119854
Meld
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TimTamToe in post 119851 said:
Hi All

Firstly can the same UID be used for an existing train in the 00:00 tt and a seed in a 04:45
-

YES

Quote:
For example I have a train 7O70FF1 entering at 04:30 which then exits the area at 04:55. A rule is in place saying that 7O70FF2 must enter x min after 7O70FF1 exits. For a multi seed start of 04:45 can I reuse the UID 7O70FF1 when it seeds at a signal or to I need to have 7O70FF1B for example.
If you have created a seed for 7O70FF1 - the rule still works as the 0430 entry has been replaced by the seed

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The following user said thank you: TimTamToe
Coming soon: multi-start timetables and seeding 04/08/2019 at 13:07 #119855
postal
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From the testing I have done so far it seems to be possible to use the same UID for both trains you suggest.

Another thing I now use as the normal procedure concerns trains in the later starts that are seeding at a location where they have been formed from a previous working that arrived before the chosen seed time. Suppose there is a seed time of 04:45 and that 1A01 arrives somewhere at 04:00 with a next working of 1A02 departing 05:00. If you seed 1A02 at the platform you then have to have two variants of 1A02 in the TT (one to run on from the 04:00 arrival and N working and one to seed in the platform). I find it easier to control if you create a second variant of 1A01 as a seed train at the platform (i.e. the 1A01 seed TT has only one location and an action of N 1A02). Then you only need the single variant of 1A02 in the TT as it is formed as the N working from the version of 1A01 which is appropriate.

The rules are where the biggest problems arise. For a train to enter, all rules applied to that train must have been satisfied. So if you have one train with two rules, it will not enter unless both rules have been met. In the instance you give, if you have two variants (7O70FF1 and 7O70FF1B), 7O70FF2 will never enter no matter which seed time is chosen as one of the rules cannot be met. However, as MarkC and John (Meld) have explained you can get round that by using the single TD/UID for both seed and non-seed.

There is a fudge to get round things if you need to use different TDs/UIDs which I can explain if you run into that problem.

"Always forgive your enemies -- nothing annoys them so much" - Oscar Wilde (16/10/1854 – 30/11/1900), Irish poet and playwright.
Last edited: 04/08/2019 at 13:23 by postal
Reason: None given

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The following user said thank you: TimTamToe
Coming soon: multi-start timetables and seeding 05/08/2019 at 15:10 #119876
TimTamToe
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Thanks both John's!

Think I'm getting there...Just going through my "late running rules" to check I haven't missed any that need altering / additional train to be added in and finally diving in and using decisions for the first time too!

Postal, Yeah I do a similar thing and seed PLxx with N: activity. I've seen your PM and I'll respond in due course, but yes may well take you up on that offer.

Cheers
Gareth

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Coming soon: multi-start timetables and seeding 06/08/2019 at 07:03 #119904
Giantray
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Just a thought. Will this meean that all timetables will have to be converted to the new format? Or does it mean that timetables only need to be converted if one requires the flexibility of starting at other times? I am just thinking about all the Customised Timetables I have that I have spent hours working on to suit my requirements. The thought of having to convert them all is very daunting!!
Professional Railwayman since 1981. Railway Historian (SER, LCDR)
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Coming soon: multi-start timetables and seeding 06/08/2019 at 09:11 #119907
postal
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Giantray in post 119904 said:
Just a thought. Will this meean that all timetables will have to be converted to the new format? Or does it mean that timetables only need to be converted if one requires the flexibility of starting at other times? I am just thinking about all the Customised Timetables I have that I have spent hours working on to suit my requirements. The thought of having to convert them all is very daunting!!
Existing TTs are not affected in any way (although you would have the option of adding additional seeding time(s) to those TTs if you wished). If you have updated things from the Update button you are already running the multiseed version of the loader and are already running existing TTs without modifying them.

"Always forgive your enemies -- nothing annoys them so much" - Oscar Wilde (16/10/1854 – 30/11/1900), Irish poet and playwright.
Last edited: 06/08/2019 at 09:14 by postal
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Coming soon: multi-start timetables and seeding 06/08/2019 at 11:42 #119913
Meld
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postal in post 119907 said:
Giantray in post 119904 said:
Just a thought. Will this meean that all timetables will have to be converted to the new format? Or does it mean that timetables only need to be converted if one requires the flexibility of starting at other times? I am just thinking about all the Customised Timetables I have that I have spent hours working on to suit my requirements. The thought of having to convert them all is very daunting!!
Existing TTs are not affected in any way (although you would have the option of adding additional seeding time(s) to those TTs if you wished). If you have updated things from the Update button you are already running the multiseed version of the loader and are already running existing TTs without modifying them.
Everything Postal says is quite correct, it really is just a matter of maintaining a single set of data as opposed to 3 individual TTs. For example on my old format of 00:00 04:00 & 14:00 start times if a bug was reported in the afternoon I would have to execute the fix to all three TTs, now its a one shot fix.

I assume you have individual Start TTs with associated different seed times in each. Try multiseeding one and see how you go on, it really is pretty quick to do.

Open 2 copies of the sim (one with the master TT and one with the later TT)

In the later TT create a seed Group for the seed start time (04:45 for example)

Sort the TT by Entry Time, you will see all the seeds will have a seeding group of TT Start, just alter all these to the seed group you created.

Once completed highlight all the services in your newly created Seed Group and save them using the save button on the timetables tab (as this will only save anything thats highlighted) (I normally save this as Seed.Wtt)

Go back to your master TT with the 00:00 start and merge the Seed.WTT in.

You will now see 2 sets of seeds in the TT, the only thing left to do is go to Train Types tab and click on Merge Identical, you can then save this using the normal TT save. Renaming if you wish.

Just on thing to note is the already used warnings in analysis are quite normal and no action is needed, there are another couple that are fixable and MarkC is quite adept at finding fixes for these.

HTH

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