Signaller set a wrong route and the driver accepts it caused delay?

You are here: Home > Forum > Miscellaneous > The real thing (signalling) > Signaller set a wrong route and the driver accepts it caused delay?

Page 1 of 1

Signaller set a wrong route and the driver accepts it caused delay? 02/01/2020 at 09:10 #122690
mm2mm2
Avatar
14 posts
I noticed in 0740 today in the Opentraintimes Kings Cross and Moorgate to Hitchin page that a Cambridge-bound Thameslink train "9S02" was at signal 711 in north of Hitchin (Down slow), while it should have been routed to either 705 or 943 for its journey to Cambridge. After a while, the train reversed to shunt signal 232 and worked in the wrong way to the Down fast shunt signal 220. It then reversed again for 943 and continued its journey to Letchworth GC and terminated there due to an "Operational incident".

I've never seen anything like this before apart from diversions to alternative routes due to incident. Had the signaller set a wrong route for the train from 697 to 711 and the driver accepts the wrong route, hence the reverse movement and the delay? Is this rare?

I obtained the TD data from the Network Rail open data mirror page and found the relevant records in the attachment.

Opentraintimes performance page of 9S02

Track and signal layout of the Hitchin area (in SimSig)




Post has attachments. Log in to view them.
Last edited: 02/01/2020 at 09:11 by mm2mm2
Reason: None given

Log in to reply
Signaller set a wrong route and the driver accepts it caused delay? 02/01/2020 at 09:58 #122691
Peter Bennet
Avatar
4654 posts
What did you use to open the .gz files in the mirror link?

Peter

My fake plants died because I did not pretend to water them.
Log in to reply
Signaller set a wrong route and the driver accepts it caused delay? 02/01/2020 at 10:10 #122692
Sacro
Avatar
1030 posts
Peter Bennet in post 122691 said:
What did you use to open the .gz files in the mirror link?

Peter
7zip does most archive types

Log in to reply
Signaller set a wrong route and the driver accepts it caused delay? 02/01/2020 at 10:12 #122693
mm2mm2
Avatar
14 posts
Yes, I used 7zip to open the gz file and used notepad to open the td file.
Log in to reply
Signaller set a wrong route and the driver accepts it caused delay? 02/01/2020 at 19:32 #122694
Muzer
Avatar
678 posts
Online
Looks like this might well be what happened. Signaller alone would be responsible in cases where the signalling doesn't give the driver enough advanced notice to stop prior to the wrong route's entrance signal (eg a colour light location with free greens and no preliminary route indicator). Otherwise I believe it's treated as an incident for both driver and signaller, as the signaller probably shouldn't have made the routeing error and the driver probably shouldn't have accepted it. How delay is attributed in this case I don't know.
Last edited: 02/01/2020 at 19:33 by Muzer
Reason: None given

Log in to reply
Signaller set a wrong route and the driver accepts it caused delay? 02/01/2020 at 19:40 #122695
Peter Bennet
Avatar
4654 posts
According to RTT "This service was cancelled between Letchworth and Cambridge due to an issue with the train crew (TG)."

Peter

My fake plants died because I did not pretend to water them.
Log in to reply
Signaller set a wrong route and the driver accepts it caused delay? 02/01/2020 at 19:50 #122696
GeoffM
Avatar
4710 posts
Muzer in post 122694 said:
Signaller alone would be responsible in cases where the signalling doesn't give the driver enough advanced notice to stop prior to the wrong route's entrance signal (eg a colour light location with free greens and no preliminary route indicator).
Schedule says it stopped as scheduled at Hitchin station (and thus the junction signal) so advance notice doesn't really apply here.

SimSig Boss
Log in to reply
Signaller set a wrong route and the driver accepts it caused delay? 02/01/2020 at 20:53 #122697
Peter Bennet
Avatar
4654 posts
Now that it's controlled by York would it potentially have ARS?

Peter

My fake plants died because I did not pretend to water them.
Log in to reply
Signaller set a wrong route and the driver accepts it caused delay? 02/01/2020 at 21:00 #122698
KymriskaDraken
Avatar
893 posts
Peter Bennet in post 122697 said:
Now that it's controlled by York would it potentially have ARS?

Peter
ARS should have known which way the train was supposed to go!

Kev

Log in to reply
Signaller set a wrong route and the driver accepts it caused delay? 02/01/2020 at 21:14 #122699
Stephen Fulcher
Avatar
1499 posts
ARS is only as good as the data input into it - I have seen reports of it wrong routing trains. The signaller though should spot such issues and intervene

I believe where a wrong route is taken by a driver, the delay is split 50/50 between the Driver and Signaller

Log in to reply
Signaller set a wrong route and the driver accepts it caused delay? 02/01/2020 at 22:03 #122702
Peter Bennet
Avatar
4654 posts
KymriskaDraken in post 122698 said:
Peter Bennet in post 122697 said:
Now that it's controlled by York would it potentially have ARS?

Peter
ARS should have known which way the train was supposed to go!

Kev
Yes, but my question was whether it potentially had ARS, whether (if it does) it was switched on and coded properly is a different question.

Peter

My fake plants died because I did not pretend to water them.
Log in to reply
Signaller set a wrong route and the driver accepts it caused delay? 02/01/2020 at 22:50 #122704
GeoffM
Avatar
4710 posts
Peter Bennet in post 122697 said:
Now that it's controlled by York would it potentially have ARS?

Peter
I understand it's Westcad so yes, it could potentially have TREARS (aka TRESA, aka Signaller's Assistant, and don't get me started on the apostrophe).

I could only find a couple of images of non-Cross workstations and there appear to be ARS subareas on there, plus Sheffield almost certainly has it - I did some prep work for TRE/Hitachi a few years ago on it. I don't think was installed on Day 1, if it was indeed installed, though.

SimSig Boss
Last edited: 02/01/2020 at 22:55 by GeoffM
Reason: None given

Log in to reply
Signaller set a wrong route and the driver accepts it caused delay? 03/01/2020 at 00:55 #122713
SamTDS
Avatar
126 posts
Muzer in post 122694 said:
Looks like this might well be what happened. Signaller alone would be responsible in cases where the signalling doesn't give the driver enough advanced notice to stop prior to the wrong route's entrance signal (eg a colour light location with free greens and no preliminary route indicator). Otherwise I believe it's treated as an incident for both driver and signaller, as the signaller probably shouldn't have made the routeing error and the driver probably shouldn't have accepted it. How delay is attributed in this case I don't know.
Somewhere on my drives I got the delay attribution guide which also has all the delay codes. Il see if I can try and find it and work out what it would likely be put under. Certainly the delay codes would chain through to other trains from the knock on effect.

SamTDS - STDS | My comments are my opinions and interpretations and do not reflect on the wonderfull SimSig team. I am in no way part of the team.
Log in to reply
Signaller set a wrong route and the driver accepts it caused delay? 03/01/2020 at 01:03 #122714
headshot119
Avatar
3385 posts
Online
SamTDS in post 122713 said:
Muzer in post 122694 said:
Looks like this might well be what happened. Signaller alone would be responsible in cases where the signalling doesn't give the driver enough advanced notice to stop prior to the wrong route's entrance signal (eg a colour light location with free greens and no preliminary route indicator). Otherwise I believe it's treated as an incident for both driver and signaller, as the signaller probably shouldn't have made the routeing error and the driver probably shouldn't have accepted it. How delay is attributed in this case I don't know.
Somewhere on my drives I got the delay attribution guide which also has all the delay codes. Il see if I can try and find it and work out what it would likely be put under. Certainly the delay codes would chain through to other trains from the knock on effect.
If the driver takes a wrong route where they had sufficient time to stop at the junction signal, and the signaller has set the wrong route incorrectly then it's 50/50 Driver and signaller.

"CHECK Do you stop at Capenhurst?" - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
Log in to reply
Signaller set a wrong route and the driver accepts it caused delay? 03/01/2020 at 04:36 #122715
Giantray
Avatar
224 posts
As it was a 9Sxx, calling on the down at Hitchin, the junction signal being the platform starter, the Signaller or TRESARS set the wrong route. After completing station duties the Driver misread the signal and took the wrong route, 50/50 split in delay attribution. However, as a Signaller, I always say a Driver can only be led to a wrong route for whatever reason because of Signaller error. The Signaller takes the lead in the occurrence whether the Driver takes the wrong route or not, even if ARS is in use, the Signaller is responsible for ensuring the correct route is set. Now there will be several Signallers who would disagree with me, argue over the delay attribution, but at the end of the day a wrong route is instigated by the Signaller.

Not sure whether or not YorkROC has ARS of any version, but Hitchin often has late running from all directions,it may well have been out of ARS and Signaller operated.

A common error by Signallers is to do what is called "read through". They see a junction signal is not set and look back, see a train and set the route overlooking the train near or at the signal. Problem being in busy areas, a Signaller will be processing several regulating moves at once, setting routes in advance. Ocassionally a Signaller will overlook, miscalculate, or get distracted and a wrong route occurs. Believe you me, a Signaller will never intentionally set a wrong route.

Professional Railwayman since 1981. Railway Historian (SER, LCDR)
Log in to reply
The following users said thank you: BarryM, as1981
Signaller set a wrong route and the driver accepts it caused delay? 03/01/2020 at 17:58 #122726
metcontrol
Avatar
197 posts
Online
Speaking as someone from "another" railway and also as someone who was stuck outside Hitchin on my way home from nights whilst the moves took place -

The train certainly carried the correct headcode - at least as far as Finsbury Park. I had hoped to catch that particular service but missed it and watched as it left London without me! It also had the correct headcode during its movements at Hitchin (I was watching what was holding us up on OTT and it did take a while to fully register what was going on.

As far as my "other" railway goes, wrong signal lowered for any train and not accepted is attributed to the signaller (or signalling equipment if working automatically). However as soon as the train accepts the wrong route it becomes attributed to the driver as they are the last link in the chain.

Provided no SPAD or any safety related error has occured (they have accepted a green signal - albeit to the wrong destination) the train is allowed to continue and the driver relieved when practical. The customers on 9S02 were all dumped at Letchworth and many did not board my train as it was only going as far as Royston.

Log in to reply
Signaller set a wrong route and the driver accepts it caused delay? 03/01/2020 at 22:25 #122736
TUT
Avatar
203 posts
As others have said, the delay is usually split 50-50 between driver and signaller, unless there are other factors as suggested above.

If ARS is deemed to be at fault, there is a delay code for that, but I don't know how liberally or not it is applied. I've seen it used.

Otherwise the codes are usually OC signaller and TG TOC driver, however this delay would have been attributed by the delay attributors who would have obviously made the investigations and the decisions, which can then be disputed.

I feel like it probably isn't best to speculate about the specifics of a particular incident when it comes to blame on a public forum?

Log in to reply
Signaller set a wrong route and the driver accepts it caused delay? 04/01/2020 at 13:37 #122746
metcontrol
Avatar
197 posts
Online
TUT in post 122736 said:
I feel like it probably isn't best to speculate about the specifics of a particular incident when it comes to blame on a public forum?
Fully agree with that. What seems on the surface to be somebody's "error" does not completely smack of something that likely to happen at that location "by accident."

Log in to reply
Signaller set a wrong route and the driver accepts it caused delay? 04/01/2020 at 14:15 #122748
DriverCurran
Avatar
512 posts
Giantray in post 122715 said:
However, as a Signaller, I always say a Driver can only be led to a wrong route for whatever reason because of Signaller error.
Whilst it is the signaller that 'lays the trap for the unwary' as a former driver I can say with a professional pride in my former work that I never took a wrong route. I can only think of a handful of places where you could get a set of free greens that could lead you into being able to get where you were going. Approaching Tonbridge on the down main you could get greens onto the down slow (for platform 3) or down fast (no platform), Parks Bridge on the Up Fast was a free aspect to both Up Fast and Up Slow (No platforms on the fast lines). In virtually every other case a driver should know (If he/she has undertaken their route learning in a correct and professional manner, and lets face it a driver is paid a professional salary to do a professional job) that getting a green aspect on signal x means that the diverging route has not been set and therefore they should be applying the brake to enable them to stop at the junction signal and then challenge the signaller.

Paul

You have to get a red before you can get any other colour
Log in to reply
The following users said thank you: larsht, Giantray
Signaller set a wrong route and the driver accepts it caused delay? 04/01/2020 at 17:55 #122753
UKTrainMan
Avatar
1678 posts
Definitely not the first time that this has happened at the very same location, and in my case probably in a very similar fashion.

I was on what would have been a Hertfordshire Rail Tours train (that alone should give a rough idea as to when this was - HRT no longer exist, at least not in that name) to what was either Scotland (including the Settle–Carlisle line) or perhaps more likely Norwich, when I think the wrong route was taken towards Peterborough when for whatever reason we were supposed to go via Cambridge (that'd make sense, if we were going to Norwich).

Quite vividly recall coming to a fairly quick stop, then someone in a HiViz walking alongside the train (probably to the rear loco (I think that the train was Class 66 or 67 top & tailed)), reversing, then going forward via the correct route.

Does leave me wondering how many more times other similar matters have occurred at this particular location / in this particular area.

"SimSig aficionado!"
Log in to reply
Signaller set a wrong route and the driver accepts it caused delay? 04/01/2020 at 19:36 #122754
LordSven
Avatar
27 posts
During my days at Waterloo the signallers at Wimbledon didn't use the ARS as the feeling was that they could do a far more efficient job themselves, and that was straight from the regulator himself!
Log in to reply
Signaller set a wrong route and the driver accepts it caused delay? 05/01/2020 at 17:45 #122763
metcontrol
Avatar
197 posts
Online
UKTrainMan in post 122753 said:
Definitely not the first time that this has happened at the very same location, and in my case probably in a very similar fashion.

I was on what would have been a Hertfordshire Rail Tours train (that alone should give a rough idea as to when this was - HRT no longer exist, at least not in that name) to what was either Scotland (including the Settle–Carlisle line) or perhaps more likely Norwich, when I think the wrong route was taken towards Peterborough when for whatever reason we were supposed to go via Cambridge (that'd make sense, if we were going to Norwich).

Quite vividly recall coming to a fairly quick stop, then someone in a HiViz walking alongside the train (probably to the rear loco (I think that the train was Class 66 or 67 top & tailed)), reversing, then going forward via the correct route.

Does leave me wondering how many more times other similar matters have occurred at this particular location / in this particular area. :/
Possibly long enough ago it was prior to the Hitchin Flyover? Which brought an extra "repeater" arrow prior to Hitchin to indicate which way the route is set ahead. And no doubt the tour did not have a scheduled stop at Hitchin - directly in front of the starting signal displaying which route is set? Whereas the train in question here did have a stop scheduled.

Not denying wrong signals have never been given/accepted here, but for this particular signal which is generally (not always) seen during a station stop must rate as one of the lower incident ones on the line.

Log in to reply
Signaller set a wrong route and the driver accepts it caused delay? 05/01/2020 at 23:09 #122772
Mikehax
Avatar
23 posts
GeoffM in post 122704 said:
Peter Bennet in post 122697 said:
Now that it's controlled by York would it potentially have ARS?

Peter
I understand it's Westcad so yes, it could potentially have TREARS (aka TRESA, aka Signaller's Assistant, and don't get me started on the apostrophe).

I could only find a couple of images of non-Cross workstations and there appear to be ARS subareas on there, plus Sheffield almost certainly has it - I did some prep work for TRE/Hitachi a few years ago on it. I don't think was installed on Day 1, if it was indeed installed, though.
Sheffield has SARS covering the entire workstation. The three KX workstations at York do NOT have any form of ARS on them, all being a simple re-control of the NX panels for KX PSB. I believe that that the workstations for the two panels remaining at KX PSB will have ARS as they will be part of a resignalling scheme when they eventually migrate to York ROC.

As an aside, the only part of the three current workstations that has TORR is the northern half of the Hertford Loop which was added when it was re-signalled for the ETRMS test section.

Log in to reply
The following users said thank you: GeoffM, pebbens
Signaller set a wrong route and the driver accepts it caused delay? 10/01/2020 at 15:46 #122818
Guts
Avatar
287 posts
The delay gets split between Driver and Signaller.

That's the simple answer to this.

According to the TRUST log, The driver had to set back after taking the signal and crossing pointwork.

Log in to reply
Signaller set a wrong route and the driver accepts it caused delay? 13/01/2020 at 00:25 #122854
MrBitsy
Avatar
121 posts
At Bristol some use it, some don't.

I use it all the time because I use traffic management software. This software allows me to change routes, lines or platforms ahead of time. Traffic management updates trust and ARS with the changes.

TVSC Link 4 signaller - Temple Meads, Bath & Stoke Gifford
Log in to reply