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Question regarding Freight services in timetables.

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Question regarding Freight services in timetables. 25/05/2020 at 00:34 #127094
haydenrobertson
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Question for timetable creators:
What do you typically use for seeing what type of loco and the wagons, the consists of freight services, when making your timetables?

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Question regarding Freight services in timetables. 25/05/2020 at 05:28 #127095
GeoffM
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Freightmaster, friends in the know, YouTube, fansites, Flickr... even satellite imagery has been useful at times!
SimSig Boss
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Question regarding Freight services in timetables. 25/05/2020 at 06:17 #127096
Philo
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Real Time Trains shows the unit number for locos of GBRf trains.

https://blog.realtimetrains.com/2020/03/gb-railfreight-release-locomotive-allocations/

Last edited: 25/05/2020 at 06:18 by Philo
Reason: Link edited

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Question regarding Freight services in timetables. 25/05/2020 at 08:41 #127098
andyallen4014
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I'm using the Freightmaster website (and Timetable book) and the forum there is useful for getting some 'gen' on what is running.
Another tip, if a train in your Timetable also appears in another timetable that has already been released then have a look there.
My biggest question tended to be the consist (how many wagons and the length) but there are ways to find this out, just takes a bit of research.

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Question regarding Freight services in timetables. 25/05/2020 at 11:03 #127101
haydenrobertson
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GeoffM in post 127095 said:
Freightmaster, friends in the know, YouTube, fansites, Flickr... even satellite imagery has been useful at times!
I did try looking at Flickr - filtering the date for more recent photos, some photos are perfect, but others are mainly focused on the loco, but others you can see how many wagons are on the back.

I guess 'making it up' so to speak or having an 'educated guess' but within the realms of realism is fine? Because obviously, I'd imagine freight consists are different everyday?

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Question regarding Freight services in timetables. 25/05/2020 at 11:05 #127102
haydenrobertson
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andyallen4014 in post 127098 said:
I'm using the Freightmaster website (and Timetable book) and the forum there is useful for getting some 'gen' on what is running.
Another tip, if a train in your Timetable also appears in another timetable that has already been released then have a look there.
My biggest question tended to be the consist (how many wagons and the length) but there are ways to find this out, just takes a bit of research.
"Another tip, if a train in your Timetable also appears in another timetable that has already been released then have a look there." That's quite a good suggestion, especially if you want the two timetables to chain up

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Question regarding Freight services in timetables. 25/05/2020 at 11:06 #127103
haydenrobertson
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Thankyou for the suggestions
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Question regarding Freight services in timetables. 25/05/2020 at 11:07 #127104
andyallen4014
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haydenrobertson in post 127101 said:
GeoffM in post 127095 said:
Freightmaster, friends in the know, YouTube, fansites, Flickr... even satellite imagery has been useful at times!
I guess 'making it up' so to speak or having an 'educated guess' but within the realms of realism is fine? Because obviously, I'd imagine freight consists are different everyday?
I think an educated guess is acceptable, but I would put a note in the timetable details when you release it that some freight services have been left open to interpretation!

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Question regarding Freight services in timetables. 25/05/2020 at 11:16 #127105
haydenrobertson
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By doing some research I have found a rights table, from Freightliner and one for GBRf and DB Cargo. Slightly outdated though - 2016
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Question regarding Freight services in timetables. 25/05/2020 at 12:12 #127108
bill_gensheet
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For the 1980/1990's ones:

Some trains, probably long and awkward ones, had the SLU in the WTT. As this is significant I generally stick to it.
There is a reasonable photographic / forum record for a some trains, eg MGR and oil which were fixed formation.

The length of shorter trains is largely irrelevant for SimSig, they fit in loops and occupy blocks. As such 'Freight long' and 'Freight short' will suffice with speed and weight differences as needed.

The only other case to consider is if using a headshunt then make the train fit, even if the real train was longer back then, the headshunt was longer back then too.

Bill

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Question regarding Freight services in timetables. 25/05/2020 at 12:34 #127109
58050
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All of the advice given above is fine if you are referring to freight train services of the modern era. If you are writing a timetable for the BR era then things get more complicated as there are more locomotive types to choose from. There are some good video clips on YouTube for that, but depending on how accurate you want to be then you'd need specific freight train loads books to work out the maximum tonnages for loco types over certain routes. Actual locomotive diagrams also reveal things that the WTTs don't show, like when locos et fuelled & there booked subsequent workings, but these are quite hard to comke across for the BR period. Another item which is useful for the BR period is the 'Trip Notice' which detail what shunting locos are booked to do as well as MGR traffic runs as those services in the Trip Notice don't tend to be printed in freight WTTs. Trip Notices also gave the minimum class of loco required to work a specifix trip. Trip Notices however finished in 1994 as I have a 1994 East Midlands trip notice covering Worksop & Toton Depots. It actually gives the number of locos & type plus the loco diagram allocated to either depot to cover the work from that depot. I've not seen a trip notice post 1994 yet.
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Question regarding Freight services in timetables. 25/05/2020 at 17:45 #127115
GeoffM
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haydenrobertson said:
Because obviously, I'd imagine freight consists are different everyday?
Not necessarily. You might have an imbalance of wagons at source and destination points otherwise.

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Question regarding Freight services in timetables. 25/05/2020 at 19:53 #127117
jc92
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GeoffM in post 127115 said:
haydenrobertson said:
Because obviously, I'd imagine freight consists are different everyday?
Not necessarily. You might have an imbalance of wagons at source and destination points otherwise.
Most modern freights are block trains which will have a near fixed consist.

for example EWS coal trains were normally 19, 21 or 23 HTA's and the exact length would depend on what circuit was being worked. The main variance might be due to cripples or extra spare wagons in transit for instance.

Equally the Hope - Dewsbury Cement workings are in multiples of 6, normally 18 24 or 36 wagons (mostly 36) which are cut at Earles Sidings into 12 wagon cuts to go to and from the cement works.

I'd echo the previous comment on borrowing from existing 2009/15/19 default timetables if in doubt as these have been written using accurate or near accurate info from that given day and represent the best chance of matching workings up.

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Question regarding Freight services in timetables. 25/05/2020 at 20:22 #127121
58050
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In BR days when I worked for the BRB at McMillan House, Paddington(Director of Operations) in the BRB control room there was a section in there called the CWA[Centrl Wagon Authority]. They would be responsible for the deployment of the various wagon fleets. I was responsible for thw wagon Tagging table for TOPS. Freight train tagging was responsible to where the wagons once emptied were destined to go by picking up a TOPS Stannox which would advise the yard staff where in the country the wagon is destined to go & that is still the system in use today.
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Question regarding Freight services in timetables. 26/05/2020 at 09:21 #127125
kbarber
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58050 in post 127121 said:
In BR days when I worked for the BRB at McMillan House, Paddington(Director of Operations) in the BRB control room there was a section in there called the CWA[Centrl Wagon Authority]. They would be responsible for the deployment of the various wagon fleets. I was responsible for thw wagon Tagging table for TOPS. Freight train tagging was responsible to where the wagons once emptied were destined to go by picking up a TOPS Stannox which would advise the yard staff where in the country the wagon is destined to go & that is still the system in use today.
Down in the yards, of course, the tags pretty much equated to shunting instructions. Each region (I think?) had a freight trains marshalling booklet which showed how portions were to be marshalled, from the loco. The only one I can recall off the top of my head is 6O88, the morning Hoo Junction/Dover we used to clear excess ferry traffic. Memory no longer serves perfectly. It was either 88P-889-89F or 88P-89F-889. 88P was the Plumstead paper, a premium traffic that came down from Corpach class 4 overnight (Pascal, you may remember... does 4M74 sound right?). 89F was 'Dover Ferry and Town Yard', in other words train ferry traffic. 889 was anything to be marshalled at Hoo Junction, sent rough. 889 often included a few 100t scrap wagons for Sheerness Steel; you didn't want to be in the way when a cut of them was sent off down 15 Road! There would also be empty cement tanks for just-about anywhere in Kent. 88P came off the front of the up Mossend as a block, shunted on to the front of the made-up train, and the cl33 that was usually waiting tied on to depart ASAP; if we were really pushing, we'd sometimes get the Southern men to tie on to the front of the arriving train on 17 Road as soon as the AC loco was clear, and they would do the shunt themselves, especially if the alternative was that they would get to Longhedge after the block went on for the morning peak and have to cool their heels for a couple of hours rather than get off nice and early after a 'job and finish'.

With some trains, length would be the limiting factor; I recall getting Control authority to run the Bescot (6M92 if I remember rightly?) overlength (80SLU vice 60) was by no means unknown. Others would be up to weight long before the length became an issue. But there would be other days when trains would go out with barely half a load. No rhyme or reason I could ever discern, that was just the traffic we had that day.

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Question regarding Freight services in timetables. 26/05/2020 at 10:10 #127126
58050
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kbarber in post 127125 said:
58050 in post 127121 said:
In BR days when I worked for the BRB at McMillan House, Paddington(Director of Operations) in the BRB control room there was a section in there called the CWA[Centrl Wagon Authority]. They would be responsible for the deployment of the various wagon fleets. I was responsible for thw wagon Tagging table for TOPS. Freight train tagging was responsible to where the wagons once emptied were destined to go by picking up a TOPS Stannox which would advise the yard staff where in the country the wagon is destined to go & that is still the system in use today.
Down in the yards, of course, the tags pretty much equated to shunting instructions. Each region (I think?) had a freight trains marshalling booklet which showed how portions were to be marshalled, from the loco. The only one I can recall off the top of my head is 6O88, the morning Hoo Junction/Dover we used to clear excess ferry traffic. Memory no longer serves perfectly. It was either 88P-889-89F or 88P-89F-889. 88P was the Plumstead paper, a premium traffic that came down from Corpach class 4 overnight (Pascal, you may remember... does 4M74 sound right?). 89F was 'Dover Ferry and Town Yard', in other words train ferry traffic. 889 was anything to be marshalled at Hoo Junction, sent rough. 889 often included a few 100t scrap wagons for Sheerness Steel; you didn't want to be in the way when a cut of them was sent off down 15 Road! There would also be empty cement tanks for just-about anywhere in Kent. 88P came off the front of the up Mossend as a block, shunted on to the front of the made-up train, and the cl33 that was usually waiting tied on to depart ASAP; if we were really pushing, we'd sometimes get the Southern men to tie on to the front of the arriving train on 17 Road as soon as the AC loco was clear, and they would do the shunt themselves, especially if the alternative was that they would get to Longhedge after the block went on for the morning peak and have to cool their heels for a couple of hours rather than get off nice and early after a 'job and finish'.

With some trains, length would be the limiting factor; I recall getting Control authority to run the Bescot (6M92 if I remember rightly?) overlength (80SLU vice 60) was by no means unknown. Others would be up to weight long before the length became an issue. But there would be other days when trains would go out with barely half a load. No rhyme or reason I could ever discern, that was just the traffic we had that day.
Yes you are correct Keith regarding the freight train marshalling book. I have about 10 of those in my collection dating from the 1970s through to the 1990s They werte split into various sections usually for freightliners & wagonload traffic later Speedlink as well as Company & block trains. They listed the order of the train to be marshalled from yards going forward showing portions to be detached or attached & go forward in that order. Length limits could be amended on the sly providing it was agreed by the regional controls in advance. Freight train tagging was also reponsible for showing whre loaded wagons were destined to go as well. I always thought TOPS had certain nicetoes & freight train tagging was one of those things originally created of course by the Southern Pacific in the US. I'd be interested to know if the freight companies in the US still use a system simialr to TOPS or whether that was updated years ago, especially when you see the size of some of there manifest trains. I've been watching most of this week on 'Virtual Railfan' site one of the buiest junctions in the USA. Santa Fe Jct in Kansas City MO has a myriad of tracks criss crossing this locations & some of the freight services are vast. One intermodal service yesterday went through with 4 Dash 9 in multi at the front & another 4 in the middle which equares to 35,200HP working that one train which must have been over 2 miles long. Quite something to see. You can also find cameras for Santa Fe Jct live on YouTube. Anyone interested in the freight side of railways to watch it.

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