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New Mills Central Stopping

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Updates (08/08/2020) 08/08/2020 at 16:17 #130491
manadude2
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Thank you for these updates.

One issue I'm now getting on Peak District, is that a train will complain it's held at NM16, even though it terminates at New Mills Central. I have to clear NM16 before the train will terminate. This has only happened since the loader update.

Last edited: 09/08/2020 at 00:03 by headshot119
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Updates (08/08/2020) 08/08/2020 at 17:50 #130492
Stephen Fulcher
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I have just tried this with 2S04 on both v5.3 and v5.6 loaders and the train terminates without needing to clear NM16.
Last edited: 09/08/2020 at 00:04 by headshot119
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Updates (08/08/2020) 08/08/2020 at 18:12 #130493
jc92
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Mantis 0018907 applied to this a long time ago. its marked as fixed in 2.4.8. this was not a public release and as such its likely the issue is still outstanding on the public version.

Stephen - 2S04 is a 2/142 which is why it isn't occurring (it only occurs with 4/142 and longer). It will likely be reproducible with 2S14 - I can't but I'm running the updated version post fix.

I haven't reopened the ticket as I'm unsure whats happening with peak district currently.

edit: just noticed the changelog for peak districts manual shows this resolved - it was confirmed not resolved on the above ticket post 1.2

Last edited: 09/08/2020 at 00:04 by headshot119
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Updates (08/08/2020) 08/08/2020 at 19:09 #130494
Stephen Fulcher
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I can’t reproduce with a 4/142 either Joe.

Sim bug or not, I don’t see any difference between the two loader versions.

Last edited: 09/08/2020 at 00:04 by headshot119
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Updates (08/08/2020) 08/08/2020 at 19:37 #130495
Splodge
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FWIW, 2x142 fit perfectly well in New Mills. A 150 and a 142 will also fit comfortably although you will need to be right up to NM16 with it practically disappearing from your windscreen (stopping position NX might work?)

2x 150s you need to draw well up to NM16, and on changing ends will be very close to NM25 - in a 150/2 the gangway might will probably be blocking my view of it - and if you stopped well short of NM16 you'll be starting beyond.

150+156 you'll be starting beyond the signal but being AB, NM25 can be cleared even with the cab beyond.

156 and 156 simply won't fit. So it's quite beneficial for us that New Mills is seeing 142s again!

There's the right way, the wrong way and the railway.
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Updates (08/08/2020) 08/08/2020 at 21:48 #130501
manadude2
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Thanks for looking into it guys, looks like I put 2 and 2 together and made 5. Just a coincidence this didn't happen before the loader was updated!
Last edited: 09/08/2020 at 00:05 by headshot119
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Updates (08/08/2020) 08/08/2020 at 23:30 #130511
GeoffM
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manadude2 in post 130501 said:
Just a coincidence this didn't happen before the loader was updated!
I can confirm the last time the train stopping logic was altered was on May 2nd - before V5 Loader was released.

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New Mills Central Stopping 11/08/2020 at 13:25 #130555
Late Turn
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Splodge in post 130495 said:
150+156 you'll be starting beyond the signal but being AB, NM25 can be cleared even with the cab beyond.

On a pedantic note, with apologies, it’s not because it’s AB* that you can get the signal off with the cab beyond it - it’s purely down to the position of the block joints and/or (less likely in this case) the interlocking. I’m sure that the track circuit beyond the platform starter will lock the points, which would obviously be a problem!

* - as a general rule, AB regs only apply to the home signal and from the section signal in any case?

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New Mills Central Stopping 11/08/2020 at 15:40 #130561
Splodge
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That's a better description! I was kind of meaning the AB nature probably means there are fewer TCs allowing the signaller to set and clear the route which might not be possible were it to be SSI controlled as simulated by SimSig
There's the right way, the wrong way and the railway.
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New Mills Central Stopping 11/08/2020 at 19:58 #130568
Late Turn
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That's fair enough! In most if not all cases where you've got a turnback signalled to passenger standards, though, you'll have a separate track circuit covering the points (which is almost always provided nowadays where you've got motor points or a mechanical facing point lock).

The AB/TCB thing is a bit of a personal crusade - we've got one location, a little mechanical box with semaphore stop signals both ways but working TCB in both directions, and it's incredible how many drivers insist that it must be AB because it's got semaphores!

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New Mills Central Stopping 16/08/2020 at 03:57 #130708
TUT
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Late Turn in post 130568 said:
That's fair enough! In most if not all cases where you've got a turnback signalled to passenger standards, though, you'll have a separate track circuit covering the points (which is almost always provided nowadays where you've got motor points or a mechanical facing point lock).

The AB/TCB thing is a bit of a personal crusade - we've got one location, a little mechanical box with semaphore stop signals both ways but working TCB in both directions, and it's incredible how many drivers insist that it must be AB because it's got semaphores!
It's definitely true that the absolute block section is the line between the last stop signal controlled from one signal box, and the home signal controlled by the next signal box. It's also true that within station limits (not a defined term anymore) the general signalling regulations apply, which aren't included in the absolute block regulations. It's also true that, as you've shown in your example (which must be one of very very few, but cool all the same!), you can have semaphore signals with TCB and you can definitely definitely have colour lights with AB. Of course, around Stockport you even have full track circuiting with multiple aspect signalling and it's still AB.

But in all fairness a driver doesn't need to know or care about exactly how the signallers pass trains between signal boxes. What they want to know to do their job safely and properly is how to interpret the signals. Surely (please correct me if I'm wrong drivers) what a driver is interested in is things like whether they will be stopped or nearly stopped at each signal in turn unless all signals can be cleared for them. Now I can understand why drivers would be taught to regard lines where they have to worry about that as 'AB' for their purposes. I'm sure signallers have their own simplified understandings of how things work that might make a signal engineer wince, but it's more important that their understanding should enable them to act correctly in their role than it is to be technically correct. I know I was told that wheel flanges are used to steer trains (not generally true) and the AWS animation I saw was wrong (in some of the details) but it doesn't matter does it

Last edited: 16/08/2020 at 06:06 by TUT
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New Mills Central Stopping 16/08/2020 at 22:10 #130726
Late Turn
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Drivers absolutely do need to know the method of signalling used - there are differences (admittedly not many!) in how certain rules are applied, such as the actions when detained at a signal at danger and how the front portion of a divided train (that can't be re-coupled) should proceed. In this context, the actions appropriate to absolute block would be applied even in 'station limits' at a typical AB box - it's subtly different to the definition of the absolute block section itself. The bit about expecting to be brought quite or nearly to a stand at each stop signal is a red herring - it's equally applicable in our little island of mechanical signalling on a TCB line (Swinderby, for what it's worth).

It's also worth noting that I was expected to have a far greater understanding of how AWS actually works as a driver than I ever was as a signalman - a full written essay answer for 10 marks on my initial rules exam!

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New Mills Central Stopping 16/08/2020 at 22:32 #130727
TUT
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Late Turn in post 130726 said:
The bit about expecting to be brought quite or nearly to a stand at each stop signal is a red herring - it's equally applicable in our little island of mechanical signalling on a TCB line (Swinderby, for what it's worth).
Sorry that's what I was trying to get at. You know, that even though it's signalled as TCB, the bit about expecting to be brought quite or nearly to a stand at each stop signal (which is typically associated with AB, even though that's a red herring) applies, and so that might be why someone might think of it as AB for their purposes, even though technically it's not.

But no you're dead right and thank you, I didn't think of those differences :)

I suppose I was just saying that while it's nice to have, shall we say, a 'clear understanding' Well, I do think being technically correct isn't always that important for getting the job done right. And you know "this is AB" might be an easier way to remember what to do than "although this is TCB and not AB you have to do the thing that you always do at all the AB boxes and don't do at any of the other TCB boxes".

But hey anyway if you don't have a full understanding and your knowledge is full of useful shortcuts, tricks and simplifications there can be edge cases where you go completely wrong and perhaps this little trick could lead to a mistake being made when detained at a signal at danger during poor visibility for example. It's just, I dunno, I suppose it's not you I'm disagreeing with, I've just noticed (probably it's just me) a few examples in various places of people pedantically correcting drivers on things where the driver's understanding is much more helpful to them than the 2 page long footnote And I just feel a bit sorry for them But hey, maybe this isn't one of those cases

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New Mills Central Stopping 16/08/2020 at 22:34 #130728
headshot119
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Just adding on to the topic randomly.

When you transition from AB to TCB at a box unless otherwise noted AB applies upto the home signal, then it's TCB beyond.

Going the other way AB from the section signal, TCB up to it.

"As the last track dropped, and the route became free, came the cry BROMLEY " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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New Mills Central Stopping 16/08/2020 at 22:56 #130732
Stephen Fulcher
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And to add to the confusion with that one, I know of at least one place where it’s true when the TCB section is in part not track circuited
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New Mills Central Stopping 16/08/2020 at 23:04 #130735
clive
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TUT in post 130708 said:

It's also true that, as you've shown in your example (which must be one of very very few, but cool all the same!), you can have semaphore signals with TCB
Before Cambridge PSB opened I managed to get into Shelford signal box. That had semaphore signals and TCB in at least one direction. I think the entire line to and past Elsenham was semaphore and TCB. (I have an old Sectional somewhere, but would have to dig it out.)

Frinton Gate Box was another oddity: TCB on a single line with 25 kV AC wiring, but semaphores at the (MG) crossing.

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New Mills Central Stopping 16/08/2020 at 23:09 #130736
Late Turn
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TUT in post 130727 said:
But hey anyway if you don't have a full understanding and your knowledge is full of useful shortcuts, tricks and simplifications there can be edge cases where you go completely wrong and perhaps this little trick could lead to a mistake being made when detained at a signal at danger during poor visibility for example. It's just, I dunno, I suppose it's not you I'm disagreeing with, I've just noticed (probably it's just me) a few examples in various places of people pedantically correcting drivers on things where the driver's understanding is much more helpful to them than the 2 page long footnote And I just feel a bit sorry for them But hey, maybe this isn't one of those cases

In this case, I'd say that the best way to deal with semaphore stop signals is to forget all about the AB/TCB distinction and focus instead on the distinction between semaphores and colour lights! As you say, Stockport's an excellent example of the opposite case. Personally I find that a deep understanding of signalling principles and the operation of the signalling system helps me out no end as a driver, not just in cases like this but plenty of others where the signal sequence is nothing like you'll ever see in the classroom (e.g. a distant signal in an AB box that's associated with the first three stop signals but not the section signal, or the one with two intermediate block distants, each co-located with a stop signal within station limits!).

headshot119 in post 130728 said:
Just adding on to the topic randomly.

When you transition from AB to TCB at a box unless otherwise noted AB applies upto the home signal, then it's TCB beyond.

Going the other way AB from the section signal, TCB up to it.

I don't disagree (you worded it better than me!) - but where's it actually written down nowadays? I seem to remember that it's one of those things that came out of the Rule Book to go into company instructions, but I can't find it anywhere.

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New Mills Central Stopping 16/08/2020 at 23:17 #130737
clive
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clive in post 130735 said:
I think the entire line to and past Elsenham was semaphore and TCB. (I have an old Sectional somewhere, but would have to dig it out.)
Found it. 4th Feb 1978.

Bethnal Green to Bishops Stortford: TCB.
Bishops Stortford to Elsenham: AB down, TCB up.
Elsenham to Newport: TCB*
Newport to Audley End: AB
Audley End to Great Chesterford: TCB*
Great Chesterford to Whittlesford: AB down, TCB** up.
Whittlesford to King's Lynn: AB

TCB* means TCB when Audley End box open, AB when it was shut.
TCB** means TCB when Whittlesford box open, AB when it was shut.

Hmm, that doesn't match my memory (about 1981); the signaller *definitely* said "Track Circuit Block", which stuck in my memory because I'd never heard of it before.

Last edited: 16/08/2020 at 23:19 by clive
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New Mills Central Stopping 16/08/2020 at 23:17 #130738
headshot119
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Late Turn in post 130736 said:
TUT in post 130727 said:
But hey anyway if you don't have a full understanding and your knowledge is full of useful shortcuts, tricks and simplifications there can be edge cases where you go completely wrong and perhaps this little trick could lead to a mistake being made when detained at a signal at danger during poor visibility for example. It's just, I dunno, I suppose it's not you I'm disagreeing with, I've just noticed (probably it's just me) a few examples in various places of people pedantically correcting drivers on things where the driver's understanding is much more helpful to them than the 2 page long footnote And I just feel a bit sorry for them But hey, maybe this isn't one of those cases

In this case, I'd say that the best way to deal with semaphore stop signals is to forget all about the AB/TCB distinction and focus instead on the distinction between semaphores and colour lights! As you say, Stockport's an excellent example of the opposite case. Personally I find that a deep understanding of signalling principles and the operation of the signalling system helps me out no end as a driver, not just in cases like this but plenty of others where the signal sequence is nothing like you'll ever see in the classroom (e.g. a distant signal in an AB box that's associated with the first three stop signals but not the section signal, or the one with two intermediate block distants, each co-located with a stop signal within station limits!).

headshot119 in post 130728 said:
Just adding on to the topic randomly.

When you transition from AB to TCB at a box unless otherwise noted AB applies upto the home signal, then it's TCB beyond.

Going the other way AB from the section signal, TCB up to it.

I don't disagree (you worded it better than me!) - but where's it actually written down nowadays? I seem to remember that it's one of those things that came out of the Rule Book to go into company instructions, but I can't find it anywhere.
National Operating Instructions (NOI) Unit 21.1 and Unit 22.1.

"As the last track dropped, and the route became free, came the cry BROMLEY " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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New Mills Central Stopping 16/08/2020 at 23:26 #130739
TUT
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Late Turn in post 130736 said:
TUT in post 130727 said:
But hey anyway if you don't have a full understanding and your knowledge is full of useful shortcuts, tricks and simplifications there can be edge cases where you go completely wrong and perhaps this little trick could lead to a mistake being made when detained at a signal at danger during poor visibility for example. It's just, I dunno, I suppose it's not you I'm disagreeing with, I've just noticed (probably it's just me) a few examples in various places of people pedantically correcting drivers on things where the driver's understanding is much more helpful to them than the 2 page long footnote And I just feel a bit sorry for them But hey, maybe this isn't one of those cases

In this case, I'd say that the best way to deal with semaphore stop signals is to forget all about the AB/TCB distinction and focus instead on the distinction between semaphores and colour lights! As you say, Stockport's an excellent example of the opposite case. Personally I find that a deep understanding of signalling principles and the operation of the signalling system helps me out no end as a driver, not just in cases like this but plenty of others where the signal sequence is nothing like you'll ever see in the classroom (e.g. a distant signal in an AB box that's associated with the first three stop signals but not the section signal, or the one with two intermediate block distants, each co-located with a stop signal within station limits!).

headshot119 in post 130728 said:
Just adding on to the topic randomly.

When you transition from AB to TCB at a box unless otherwise noted AB applies upto the home signal, then it's TCB beyond.

Going the other way AB from the section signal, TCB up to it.

I don't disagree (you worded it better than me!) - but where's it actually written down nowadays? I seem to remember that it's one of those things that came out of the Rule Book to go into company instructions, but I can't find it anywhere.
I think you're right, to be honest

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New Mills Central Stopping 16/08/2020 at 23:33 #130740
headshot119
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Late Turn in post 130736 said:
In this case, I'd say that the best way to deal with semaphore stop signals is to forget all about the AB/TCB distinction and focus instead on the distinction between semaphores and colour lights! As you say, Stockport's an excellent example of the opposite case. Personally I find that a deep understanding of signalling principles and the operation of the signalling system helps me out no end as a driver, not just in cases like this but plenty of others where the signal sequence is nothing like you'll ever see in the classroom (e.g. a distant signal in an AB box that's associated with the first three stop signals but not the section signal, or the one with two intermediate block distants, each co-located with a stop signal within station limits!).
Then you get into other none classroom examples like a 3 aspect colour light distant (Y YY G), reading onto a 3 aspect colour light home/section, onto the next boxes semaphore home, then semaphore section.

Doesn't fit in with the classic Distant - home - section example they teach you.

"As the last track dropped, and the route became free, came the cry BROMLEY " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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New Mills Central Stopping 17/08/2020 at 13:50 #130758
Late Turn
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headshot119 in post 130738 said:
Late Turn in post 130736 said:

I don't disagree (you worded it better than me!) - but where's it actually written down nowadays? I seem to remember that it's one of those things that came out of the Rule Book to go into company instructions, but I can't find it anywhere.
National Operating Instructions (NOI) Unit 21.1 and Unit 22.1.

Cheers, thought as much. Curiously it's not replicated anywhere in our (TOC) company instructions, nor do we have any clue where it's defined differently locally (e.g. one box where the main line is AB throughout but the branch is TCB from the junction points). Not a huge omission, but still...!

headshot119 in post 130740 said:
Late Turn in post 130736 said:
In this case, I'd say that the best way to deal with semaphore stop signals is to forget all about the AB/TCB distinction and focus instead on the distinction between semaphores and colour lights! As you say, Stockport's an excellent example of the opposite case. Personally I find that a deep understanding of signalling principles and the operation of the signalling system helps me out no end as a driver, not just in cases like this but plenty of others where the signal sequence is nothing like you'll ever see in the classroom (e.g. a distant signal in an AB box that's associated with the first three stop signals but not the section signal, or the one with two intermediate block distants, each co-located with a stop signal within station limits!).
Then you get into other none classroom examples like a 3 aspect colour light distant (Y YY G), reading onto a 3 aspect colour light home/section, onto the next boxes semaphore home, then semaphore section.

Doesn't fit in with the classic Distant - home - section example they teach you.

Indeed, the only box that I can think of on my routes that perfectly fits the 'textbook' layout is the TCB example that I referred to earlier! I've had a few 'discussions' at work with various folk, e.g. one who was insistent that (at a location with a colour light Y/G distant, colour light R/Y/G home and semaphore section signal) he should expect to find the section signal at danger because the distant was on, even though the home had cleared to a green well before he reached it. Personally I find that the understanding of the fundamentals is generally pretty poor across the driving grade as a whole - I found it invaluable to bring that understanding with me from the signalling grade (and obviously a deep interest in the subject!), and I find that it really helps me in those areas with unusual arrangements but also more generally where I find that it helps to build a better picture of what's going on around me and drive accordingly!

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New Mills Central Stopping 18/08/2020 at 17:12 #130835
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Incidentally I was up at New Mills today in a 142/150 combo, and took some photos so you can see how tight it is even for this pair. A pair of 150s would be almost 10m longer, and a 150/156 combo another 6m. Add a corridor connection into the mix with a right handed signal and you can see why we have issues!

Also, to add to what I said about starting beyond the signal, it does appear the IBJ is quite a way beyond the signal hence the ability for the signaller to clear it with a cab beyond.

150110_NMC by Martin Hodgson, on Flickr

IMG_9769 by Martin Hodgson, on Flickr

IMG_9770 by Martin Hodgson, on Flickr

There's the right way, the wrong way and the railway.
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