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London Bridge

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London Bridge 21/08/2020 at 20:00 #130922
ajax103
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When the station was remodelled as part of the Thameslink programme with 9 though platforms and 6 terminus platforms vice the former layout which was the reverse in terms of platforms and how they were used.

Where the current Platforms 10 to 15 are now, were the former buffers further back at all eg closer to where the gateline is nowadays or have they always been in the same place?

Also were the platforms both though and terminating lengthened at all?

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London Bridge 21/08/2020 at 21:55 #130932
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Answers part of my question but not if they moved the location of the buffers for the terminus platforms? Eg what's now platforms 15 to 10.

Is interesting though on how much bigger it us.

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London Bridge 21/08/2020 at 22:23 #130934
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I think 10-13 stayed put.
That means 14 and 15 are longer to match 10-13, and 16 of course is no more

Bill

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London Bridge 21/08/2020 at 22:42 #130936
postal
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ajax103 in post 130932 said:
Answers part of my question but not if they moved the location of the buffers for the terminus platforms? Eg what's now platforms 15 to 10.

Is interesting though on how much bigger it us.
Not a definitive answer as changes to the track work at the country end of the platforms may impact on the quoted lengths but the Rules of the Plan for 14/07/17 and 07/02/20 give the lengths in metres as

14/07/17 07/02/20
P10 244 252
P11 257 247
P12 252 248
P13 252 250
P14 252 252
P15 239 239

The 2012 Rules of the plan give the same lengths as the 2017 document for P10/11/12/13 but then give P14 - 165m, P15 - 167m and P16 - 168m.

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London Bridge 21/08/2020 at 23:23 #130939
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Seems right, I think the conversion of 14/15/16 into longer 14 & 15 was the first thing done, as the main rebuild initially lost other platforms, most relevant here being [8 & 9 'through the wall' ]

(no, 7 and 8 were through the wall, 9 was inside)

on the LBSC side.

Bill

Last edited: 22/08/2020 at 17:37 by bill_gensheet
Reason: Error correction

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London Bridge 22/08/2020 at 00:04 #130940
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ajax103 in post 130922 said:
Where the current Platforms 10 to 15 are now, were the former buffers further back at all eg closer to where the gateline is nowadays or have they always been in the same place?
Comparing imagery on Google Earth it appears the buffers and the platform ends both moved towards Kent with the resignalling/rebuilding. For example, in July 2013 you can see a 12-car train with its buffer end carriage half visible, so presumably the buffer stop is adjacent to the half not visible. Comparing with April 2017 and using a building adjacent which didn't move (to ensure we have an accurate reference point) you can see the buffers now visible a good 20-30m closer to Kent than before. Repeat at the country end.

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Last edited: 22/08/2020 at 00:05 by GeoffM
Reason: Units

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London Bridge 22/08/2020 at 16:36 #130952
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bill_gensheet in post 130939 said:
Seems right, I think the conversion of 14/15/16 into longer 14 & 15 was the first thing done, as the main rebuild initially lost other platforms, most relevant here being 8 & 9 'through the wall' on the LBSC side.

Bill
The former Platform 8/9, would one of them now be Platform 10?

bill_gensheet in post 130934 said:
I think 10-13 stayed put.
That means 14 and 15 are longer to match 10-13, and 16 of course is no more

Bill
When they rebuilt the new platforms for the terminal buildings, did they build them on the former trackbeds at all?

For example did they build the platform for Platform 15 on the former formation for Platform 16?

Apologies for the questions but as it's soon to be my new place of work and as I don't remember the old station much, I'm just curious about the place.

The other thing as well is when you're at the buffers for the terminal platforms you can see the track extends under the concourse but the buffers are between any train and concourse, generally speaking why is that?

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London Bridge 22/08/2020 at 17:36 #130955
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My error - P9 was also 'inside' Will edit the post.

Dug up some images:
https://d1c4d7gnm6as1q.cloudfront.net/Pictures/2000x2000fit/4/0/4/6404_tn_gb-londonbridge-station-aerial.jpg
Shows most of the south roof span without tracks, blocked by the signal box. So did London bridge used to have platforms 17/18/19 ?
P9 was the first line inside the main LBSC shed
P8 was outside, and at one time there was a P7 there too.

Old 10 on the right:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/74009/4818871249
but there's another track (P9) before the wall

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QU___NZ6Yk

7 & 8 were an island outdoors at low level with buffer end access through a hole in the wall:
Also access from the high level walkway.
You looked down at the train roofs from old P6 across the up loop.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSBf55fGAJSiiIdiQZ7iRp0esA3o-bjUGmgKHlVo8rvZDt_gDBo&s

So I think 10 is pretty much where 10 was and then the shuffle is in the high level so that:

New P9 track is above old P9 track,
New Platform 8/9 is above old P8 track and P7/P8 which was narrow
New P8 track is above old P7 track.

New P7 track is the old up through loop
New Platform 6/7 is on the old P6 track
New P6 track is where the old platform 6/5 were

New P5 track is the old P5 track
New Platform 4/5 is on the old P4 track
New P4 track is where old platform 4/3 were

New P3 track is old P3 track
New Platform 2/3 is on the old P2 track
New P2 track is where old platform 2/1 were

New P1 track is old P2 track
New Platform 1 is on the old P1 track

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London Bridge 11/10/2020 at 12:46 #133034
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Today's Platform 15 is where the 1937 Platform 22 was, up against the southside of the viaduct. Prior to the recentlayout, this was where the approach road to the Signalbox was behind the E&F Block Building which was adjacent to Platform 16.

Under Thameslink, all the platforms in the Brighton Train were dismantled, new track beds formed and new platforms built. Done in stages.The new Platforms 10 to 15 extend to the edge of the old Signal Box. Prior to that they stopped about a coach short of the Signal box. Therefore the buffer stop line can only be at least a coach length towards the country, obviously all new and Platforms 14 & 15 being moved further back to get 12 car lengths. Platform 15 is still only 11 cars because the Old Signal Box is in the way, waiting demolition to enable Platform 15 to be a 12 car platform.

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London Bridge 11/10/2020 at 12:57 #133035
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ajax103 in post 130952 said:


The other thing as well is when you're at the buffers for the terminal platforms you can see the track extends under the concourse but the buffers are between any train and concourse, generally speaking why is that?
The track extends under the platform because the buffer stops are designed to stop a train slowly and not immediately. They are friction buffers that are designed to slide along the track as a train hits them, reducing the speed of the train to a stop. If you look at the concourse above the extended track you will see the surface is different. That is surface will collapse also absorbing some of the trains speed. It may seem unsafe, but if you look at previous buffer stop collisions, (Charing Cross 11th November 1979, Cannon Street 8th January 1991 to name a couple)it is the lesser of two evils. The result of the Cannon Street buffer stop collision at slow speed is evidence of this.

The Buffer Stops are also protected by TPWS that detects the trains speed approaching the buffer stops and if too fast automatically causes the trains brakes to apply.

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London Bridge 11/10/2020 at 14:57 #133037
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Giantray in post 133034 said:
Today's Platform 15 is where the 1937 Platform 22 was, up against the southside of the viaduct. Prior to the recentlayout, this was where the approach road to the Signalbox was behind the E&F Block Building which was adjacent to Platform 16.
Comparing the aerial views, the Brighton platforms have been straightened out a bit too, so sit at an angle to the old trainshed footprint.

Under that older numbering scheme, what was the platform number of the northernmost track in the LBSC trainshed (that say 10 years ago was P9) ?
Was it 11, ie 4 platforms per span ?

Bill

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London Bridge 11/10/2020 at 21:15 #133043
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I know that this is off-topic but when I watched the Youtube video in post #130955 above, I once again saw the worst design to the front of a train that I have ever seen.... Did the design team run out of ideas? Surely they could have done better, even in the early 1980s.
...


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London Bridge 11/10/2020 at 21:20 #133044
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Found a suitable map, so answering my own question... almost.

This is from a 1950 1:1250 scale map on 'old-maps.co.uk', with platforms and tracks coloured in. It has 21 platform tracks, but 22 faces due to the double sided platforms under the LBSC roof.

There are several older maps at good scale in there too, with the loco yard & turntable for the Brighton side
https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/533009/180059/13/101860


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London Bridge 11/10/2020 at 21:25 #133045
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Scotrail 318s ended up the same way. A wee search in google and you'll find the difference.
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London Bridge 11/10/2020 at 22:22 #133046
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Hap in post 133045 said:
Scotrail 318s ended up the same way. A wee search in google and you'll find the difference.
Of the two, I think that class 318 is slightly better.

Your life can have a thousand different meanings or maybe just one....I'd recommend more than one in case you got it wrong - (Rezende)
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London Bridge 12/10/2020 at 09:36 #133048
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bill_gensheet in post 133037 said:

Under that older numbering scheme, what was the platform number of the northernmost track in the LBSC trainshed (that say 10 years ago was P9) ?
Was it 11, ie 4 platforms per span ?

Bill
The Brightn Train Shed platforms have been always been fairly striaght with just a slight curve that follows the viaduct line, even today.

Depending on how far back you want to go depends on the layout configuration of the platforms. In thirties the platform numbrering inside the Brighton Train Shed was north to south; Island Platform 12 & 13, carriage siding, island platform 14 & 15, island platform 16 & 17 ( 17 2/3rds the length of 16), island platform 18 & 19 (18 same size as 17, 19 is midway between the end of 16 & 17), island platform 20 & 21 (slightly shorther than 19) and platform 22 (slightly shorter than 21, the same position as todays platform 15)

The mid seventies layout was different, the platform numbrering inside the Brighton Train Shed was north to south; island platforms 9 & 10; 11 & 12; 13 & 14 (9 to 13 all 12 cars, 14 was 8car); island platform 15 & 16 (both same length as 14).

North of the Brighton Train Shed ( belonging to London Brighton & South Coast Railway) was the terminal platforms of the South Eastern (SER later SECR). In thirties the platforms north to south were; island platforms 8 & 9; 10 & 11 (10 was a little longer than 8 & 9, 11 a lot shorter with buffer stops level with platform 12.

The mid seventies layout there was only one island plaform number 7 & 8 (both 8 car length bufferstops level with platform 9) they were the same location as the thirties 10 & 11. In the nineties, extension of the South Eastern through platforms meant that platform 7 had to close so the tracks could be slewed over country end of the through platforms to enable platform lengthing of 1 to 6.

Platforms 8 to 11 of the thirties were know as the Low Level by the South Eastern as they terminated at a lower level to the 'high level' through lines. The term 'Low Level' is used incorrectly today to refer to platforms 10 - 15 which are really the old Brighton side.

Whilst on the platforms at London Bridge. The South Eastern through Platforms (becoming through in 1864)were numbered north to south; island platform 1 & 2; 3 & 4 (staggered (1 & 2 nearer Cannon Street)all teh same length; a No 5 through road no platform face, island platform 6 & 7 (same length as the other four but staggered nearer Charing Cross, midway between the London ends of 1 & 2 and 3 & 4. Additional there was a Mount Platform, used by the Post Office, on the otherside of the Plaform 7 line at the London End about the third of the length of 7.

In the seventies the layout was changed and the platform configuration became north to south; island platforms 1 & 2; 3 & 4 (all in the same location as the thirties 1 to 4); island platform 5 & 6 (platform 5 being alongside the old No five through road and platform 6 in line with the old platform 7); and Up Pasenger Loop a through line with no platform face (this was added a longside over the area occupied by the old Low Level Platforms 8 & 9 of the thirties). All platforms could accomodate ten cars. In the nineties under the Network South East Project, platforms 1 to 6 were made twelve car platforms by the abolition of platform 7 and the slewing over of the country end lines of platforms 1 to 6 & Up Passenger Loop.

Under Thameslink Programme, the listed Brighton train shed was demolished and in stages the present day configuration of platforms was achieved. The idea was to straighten out the South Eastern through platforms. The numbering north to south; Platform 1 (moved nearer Cannon Street); island platform 2 & 3 (also moved slightly closer to Cannon Street); island platform 4 & 5 ( also slightly closer to Cannon Street); island platform 6 & 7 and 8 & 9 (all on new alignment over the area ocuupied by the seventies platform 6 to 9 (incl. Up Pass Loop)) with two new lines from the London end going over a new viaduct over Borough Hgh Sreet to Metropolitain Jcn.

London Bridge station opened in 1836 by the London & Greenwich Railway and has seen multiple changes too many to mention here. It was built entirely on arches, original 876 arches from their terminus at London Bridge to their terminus at Greenwich, new rolling stock gotten onto the viaduct via a brick built ramp at Deptford (still there today). All of those arches are still in use today (excepted those removed at Tower Bridge Road when Tower Bridge was built) some 184 years later!!

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London Bridge 12/10/2020 at 09:40 #133049
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bill_gensheet in post 133044 said:


....It has 21 platform tracks, but 22 faces due to the double sided platforms under the LBSC roof.

There was no platform 5, is was a through line (no platform faces) in the 1950s and was lifted in the sixties. Mount Platform (Post Office Dock) alongside Platform 7 line (South Eastern through lines) , hence 22 platform faces.

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Last edited: 12/10/2020 at 09:47 by Giantray
Reason: None given

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London Bridge 12/10/2020 at 09:43 #133050
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bugsy in post 133043 said:
I know that this is off-topic but when I watched the Youtube video in post #130955 above, I once again saw the worst design to the front of a train that I have ever seen.... Did the design team run out of ideas? Surely they could have done better, even in the early 1980s.
...

Class 455 had air vents added to the old corridor connections for the drivers,convenient but ugly and meant 8 car formations had no through connection on the train, but as 455s ran with 456s (which had no corridor connectors between units) I suppose it made th situation standard.

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London Bridge 12/10/2020 at 09:44 #133051
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bugsy in post 133043 said:
I know that this is off-topic but when I watched the Youtube video in post #130955 above, I once again saw the worst design to the front of a train that I have ever seen.... Did the design team run out of ideas? Surely they could have done better, even in the early 1980s.
...

Of course Bugsy they weren't originally built in the 80's with that front, they used to have the black gangway connectors between units like in the 423s and 377s (can't remember if these were usable for the public on 455s - may have been toc dependant) and only after modifications (2004ish) do they look like they do in your picture

Last edited: 12/10/2020 at 17:16 by TimTamToe
Reason: None given

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