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Accumulated delays?

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Accumulated delays? 29/10/2020 at 00:01 #133384
9pN1SEAp
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Hi,

Whilst playing Rugby South I noticed that with delays on (and no rules in TT), delays on Down services were about the same as Ups.

Are the amounts of delays influenced by the distance the service has run (e.g. Entry Time - Origin Time)? If not, would it be worthy of a feature request?

(The 2009 TT doesn't have origin times listed though )

Thanks
Jamie

Jamie S (JAMS)
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Accumulated delays? 29/10/2020 at 09:00 #133385
kbarber
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My experience was that distance run had little to do with it. The cause (and, to a degree, location) of the delay was much more relevant. In the old days (pre Rugby SCC) a bad blockage down the Trent Valley would mean traffic from Nuneaton would be very late or nonexistent entering the old Rugby PSB area, while traffic from Coventry might remain on time for a while (eventually knock-on effects would come into play). In that case, of course, there might be a possibility of some traffic being diverted via Brum so if the problem lasted long enough you might find very late trains appearing in the 'wrong' place.

Conversely, if there was a major problem north of Crewe the Anglo-Scottish traffic would be cape or very late while the Manchesters and Liverpools made use of the less-congested Trent Valley to make up time (if they're non-stop Euston an early arrival probably means a longer PNB or early finish for the driver - good publicity is not what it's about :-) ).

Of course to get either of those in Simsig you'd need a special timetable. Or perhaps some *very* complicated decisions & rules within a timetable, which would also need to trigger lots of route-specific delays - an interesting exercise for the keen timetable writer, but probably not something for mere mortals to contemplate.

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Accumulated delays? 29/10/2020 at 09:28 #133386
postal
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kbarber in post 133385 said:
Of course to get either of those in Simsig you'd need a special timetable. Or perhaps some *very* complicated decisions & rules within a timetable, which would also need to trigger lots of route-specific delays - an interesting exercise for the keen timetable writer, but probably not something for mere mortals to contemplate.
Raises an interesting train of thought. Using Rugby as the example (and generic rather than SimSig locations) you could postulate some sort of blockage on the Trent Valley so trains diverted via Coventry. You could even just make it Up or Down train specific. Although giving complicated TTs, in principle the Decisions side of the issue would be simple. You would need to create duplicate TTs for all of the Trent Valley trains either exiting towards Coventry or entering from the Coventry direction. For the Down trains the duplicated TT would be a straight copy as far as Rugby then estimated timings towards Coventry while the Up trains would have a best guess entry time from the Coventry direction. You could leave in the scheduled times from Rugby as the train would be x minutes late at that point although I think that might cause ARS problems. Each of the duplicated TTs would be driven by one of only two decisions, Up TV > Closed or Open or Down TV > Closed or Open.

Now if you could have some sort of mechanism to activate then cancel those decisions at some random time in the sim you could then replicate the situation of an unexpected incident causing operational problems on the day until resolved . . . .

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
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Accumulated delays? 29/10/2020 at 09:59 #133388
Splodge
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Some sims originally had a couple of scenarios with this sort of incidence (I think the original Stafford might have been one?) where delays would come from a certain direction rather than everything losing time.

The issue I find, especially in 'through' sims is that it becomes less about regulation and just a case of getting rid of things in the order they bell out in!

There's the right way, the wrong way and the railway.
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Accumulated delays? 29/10/2020 at 11:24 #133391
Jan
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And Didcot had at one time (or still has?) a feature whereby Cross Country trains (determined by looking for Cross Country or XC and/or possibly a few other similar strings within the train/train type description) would be more likely to enter with delays.
Two million people attempt to use Birmingham's magnificent rail network every year, with just over a million of them managing to get further than Smethwick.
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Accumulated delays? 29/10/2020 at 15:54 #133400
GeoffM
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9pN1SEAp in post 133384 said:
Are the amounts of delays influenced by the distance the service has run (e.g. Entry Time - Origin Time)?
To answer this question directly: no, for reasons others have given.

Talking generally: it's very difficult to have anything more than specific entry points delaying all trains, or maybe only trains of a certain kind. There is just too much going on around a simulated area for the sim to have the artificial intelligence. To take a simple example, if we're playing Rugby South and snarl things up towards London, we can expect a ripple back of delays which would come back maybe 30-60 minutes later. But if we delayed northbound trains, when does the ripple return, as there are so many destinations? And does a ripple even occur when Control can turn back trains early, run them non-stop, or provide substitute stock+crew? There are just too many variables involved. It's where big chains of simulations really come into their own with your decisions having an effect for much longer and for more signallers.

SimSig Boss
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Accumulated delays? 29/10/2020 at 15:55 #133402
GeoffM
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Splodge in post 133388 said:
The issue I find, especially in 'through' sims is that it becomes less about regulation and just a case of getting rid of things in the order they bell out in!
Which, funnily enough, was one of the selectable TRESA regulation strategies ("clear the area")!

SimSig Boss
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Accumulated delays? 29/10/2020 at 15:56 #133403
GeoffM
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Jan in post 133391 said:
And Didcot had at one time (or still has?) a feature whereby Cross Country trains (determined by looking for Cross Country or XC and/or possibly a few other similar strings within the train/train type description) would be more likely to enter with delays.
I don't think that made it to the Loader version because the ability to do that in data didn't exist at the time.

SimSig Boss
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Accumulated delays? 29/10/2020 at 20:20 #133416
Peter Bennet
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GeoffM in post 133403 said:
Jan in post 133391 said:
And Didcot had at one time (or still has?) a feature whereby Cross Country trains (determined by looking for Cross Country or XC and/or possibly a few other similar strings within the train/train type description) would be more likely to enter with delays.
I don't think that made it to the Loader version because the ability to do that in data didn't exist at the time.
Current SwinDid, Exeter (possibly Westbury and Plymouth - not checked) has code to recognise XC at various entry points and to delay by up to 20 mins.
Might also have added to McSims.

Peter

I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
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Accumulated delays? 29/10/2020 at 21:37 #133419
broodje
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Although I understand the reasoning and understand why you won't fix it, it has the result that all local services are constantly delayed, while the long distance ones hardly give a problem. KX is a great example with this problem: All 1A** services are roughly on time arriving at KX. Even when they enter with a delay from PBRO, they have enough slack (ENG/PATH) timing to make up for it before they arrive at the terminal. While at the same time all stopping services get delay on delay on delay. At every stop they are checked for the delay chance and hence, even with a 4% chance of getting a delay a back and forth train between Hertford and Moorgate is garanteed to get some sort of delay.
I would really like it if this imbalance could be changed somehow. Maybe give the 1*** trains the same delay chance as they have now, but with more minutes late when they are deemed to be late? (a bit like the freight trains). Or maybe just separate the delay chances for 2*** trains and 1**** trains? or based on train type? then the user can decide for themselves what would be a natural balance?

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Accumulated delays? 30/10/2020 at 08:43 #133421
Ben86
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I wonder if it would be possible to create separate 'delay' sliders in the F3 menu for Stations Delays (affecting services in sim) vs. Entry Delays? That way, taking the Kings Cross example, you could minimise delays to the suburban services contained within the sim, and introduce longer delays for longer distance services entering from the North/Scotland? This has the potential to create more of a regulation challenge to the signaller without the less realistic prospect of frequent/lengthy station delays at smaller/intermediate stations.
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Accumulated delays? 30/10/2020 at 08:49 #133422
kbarber
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postal in post 133386 said:
kbarber in post 133385 said:
Of course to get either of those in Simsig you'd need a special timetable. Or perhaps some *very* complicated decisions & rules within a timetable, which would also need to trigger lots of route-specific delays - an interesting exercise for the keen timetable writer, but probably not something for mere mortals to contemplate.
Raises an interesting train of thought. Using Rugby as the example (and generic rather than SimSig locations) you could postulate some sort of blockage on the Trent Valley so trains diverted via Coventry. You could even just make it Up or Down train specific. Although giving complicated TTs, in principle the Decisions side of the issue would be simple. You would need to create duplicate TTs for all of the Trent Valley trains either exiting towards Coventry or entering from the Coventry direction. For the Down trains the duplicated TT would be a straight copy as far as Rugby then estimated timings towards Coventry while the Up trains would have a best guess entry time from the Coventry direction. You could leave in the scheduled times from Rugby as the train would be x minutes late at that point although I think that might cause ARS problems. Each of the duplicated TTs would be driven by one of only two decisions, Up TV > Closed or Open or Down TV > Closed or Open.

Now if you could have some sort of mechanism to activate then cancel those decisions at some random time in the sim you could then replicate the situation of an unexpected incident causing operational problems on the day until resolved . . . .
One issue, of course, is that some crews wouldn't know the road. (In other sims you might also have the problem that certain stock wasn't cleared by alternative routes. But perhaps we hadn't better go there..) Plus Control actions in reforming services, cancelling some altogether, finding conductor drivers, etc, that would make x distinctly variable (and sometimes equal to infinity). With x also varying widely between one day and another for any given train.

It's a lovely thought if anyone wants a real pig of a day sim. Might be fun for Geoff and Clive to work out how to inflict maximum torture for minimum code change :-)

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Accumulated delays? 30/10/2020 at 09:00 #133424
kbarber
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broodje in post 133419 said:
Although I understand the reasoning and understand why you won't fix it, it has the result that all local services are constantly delayed, while the long distance ones hardly give a problem. KX is a great example with this problem: All 1A** services are roughly on time arriving at KX. Even when they enter with a delay from PBRO, they have enough slack (ENG/PATH) timing to make up for it before they arrive at the terminal. While at the same time all stopping services get delay on delay on delay. At every stop they are checked for the delay chance and hence, even with a 4% chance of getting a delay a back and forth train between Hertford and Moorgate is garanteed to get some sort of delay.
I would really like it if this imbalance could be changed somehow. Maybe give the 1*** trains the same delay chance as they have now, but with more minutes late when they are deemed to be late? (a bit like the freight trains). Or maybe just separate the delay chances for 2*** trains and 1**** trains? or based on train type? then the user can decide for themselves what would be a natural balance?
Of course the large allowances on the last lap of the journey never used to exist before John Major's so-called Passenger's Charter. When he decided (pre-privatisation) that passengers should be entitled to claim for late arrivals British Rail's immediate response - very sensibly, given that they were required to run on a commercial basis - was to pad the schedules to ensure trains didn't arrive late. The limitations of computer systems (we're talking mid-'80s remember, when your humble dinosaur was but recently hatched) meant the only time recorded for Passenger's Charter purposes was arrival at final destination. So lots of allowances between Finsbury Park and Kings X and it was job done.

Realistically, long-distance trains were likely to run no more late than locals. Delay at any particular station would be little greater (and usually only a minute or 2 maximum - station overtime is the main cause of delays). And long-distance drivers would often know how to win back the odd minute or 3 here & there too, especially before On-Train Monitoring & Recording (the names of David Impy and Ken De'Ath spring to mind, as we're talking about KX).

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Accumulated delays? 31/10/2020 at 13:11 #133441
bill_gensheet
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broodje in post 133419 said:
Although I understand the reasoning and understand why you won't fix it, it has the result that all local services are constantly delayed, while the long distance ones hardly give a problem.

If enough users were likely to use it, could a 'delay multiplication factor' be put into 'Class of service' rules and then used by the sim ?
So for the KGX example class 1 could be given a higher factor of 'likelihood' and 'amount', and class 2 /3 dialled down particularly for 'likelihood'.
The initial values would be set by the author, so where class 9 are freight they would be set up differently to sims where they are 'siggie wake ups'.

Still a bit crude but at least the mechanisms are already present.

Bill

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