Dumfries station and services

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Dumfries station and services 23/12/2020 at 18:26 #135164
mjkerr
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I have now added the two
Carlisle - Dumfries - Carlisle
DMU services

However, I need some advice on this

The first thing I noticed was the track plan does not match
The crossover to the south of the station appears to be round the wrong way
A train should enter into Platform 2, reverse and swap from Down to Up on departure
As a result I attempted to use Platform 1, but the game did not like this

My current solution is have the Down working depart from Platform 2, then 1 minute later have the Up working arrive into Platform 1, then depart at the correct time

Is there an alternative?

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Dumfries station and services 23/12/2020 at 18:42 #135166
Steamer
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Dumfries is an entry/exit point, and is outside of your control, and as such activities etc. can't be timetabled there. The layout drawn in the simulation may also be simplified.

Simply timetable the train to Dumfries, no different to any train going beyond there. The return working is a train entering the simulation at Dumfries, the same as a train originating elsewhere.

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Dumfries station and services 23/12/2020 at 19:05 #135168
Jan
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… and don't forget to add a rule so the return working can't enter before the outgoing train has actually arrived/left the sim there.
Two million people attempt to use Birmingham's magnificent rail network every year, with just over a million of them managing to get further than Smethwick.
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Dumfries station and services 23/12/2020 at 21:01 #135181
mjkerr
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Agreed, outwith control so simply direct to Dumfries and process as separate workings
Jan in post 135168 said:
don't forget to add a rule so the return working can't enter before the outgoing train has actually arrived/left the sim there

Many thanks
I have still to add the rules

The only other one I have considered so far is a minimum time of following Up services arriving at Dumfries
When I lived at Barrhead it was possible for these services to be about 20 minutes apart, so I assume it is the same southbound

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Dumfries station and services 23/12/2020 at 21:23 #135182
Albert
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I don't quite understand what you mean.

The rule describes a minimum time between trains, which would be the time needed for the train to change ends at Dumfries.

Then the return working would normally enter as scheduled, unless the incoming train is late and triggers the rule.

EDIT: re-read your post and you described two trains following each other - on a line with long block sections. This does not strictly need a rule, the signalling section between Annan and Dumfries is very long so trains can't follow each other closely.

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Last edited: 23/12/2020 at 21:25 by Albert
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Dumfries station and services 24/12/2020 at 08:23 #135194
mjkerr
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Albert in post 135182 said:
you described two trains following each other - on a line with long block sections. This does not strictly need a rule, the signalling section between Annan and Dumfries is very long so trains can't follow each other closely

Looking at the Sectional Appendix, the section north of Dumfries SC031 seq005
The block is about 14 miles between Dumfries, Holywood, Kirkconnel and New Cumnock

Excellent, that is what I thought
However, if the first service is late and the second service is on-time
Does the sim still keep the gap between them?
I assumed it did not, so a rule would be required for 20 minutes separation

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Last edited: 24/12/2020 at 08:35 by mjkerr
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Dumfries station and services 24/12/2020 at 08:43 #135195
Peter Bennet
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mjkerr in post 135194 said:


Excellent, that is what I thought
However, if the first service is late and the second service is on-time
Does the sim still keep the gap between them?
I assumed it did not, so a rule would be required for 20 minutes separation
Surely any spacing is a function of line capacity. If (say) that allows 2 minute headway then if train 1 is 18 mins late train 2 can still leave on time.

Peter

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Last edited: 24/12/2020 at 09:09 by Peter Bennet
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Dumfries station and services 24/12/2020 at 10:08 #135196
kbarber
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mjkerr in post 135194 said:
Albert in post 135182 said:
you described two trains following each other - on a line with long block sections. This does not strictly need a rule, the signalling section between Annan and Dumfries is very long so trains can't follow each other closely

Looking at the Sectional Appendix, the section north of Dumfries SC031 seq005
The block is about 14 miles between Dumfries, Holywood, Kirkconnel and New Cumnock

Excellent, that is what I thought
However, if the first service is late and the second service is on-time
Does the sim still keep the gap between them?
I assumed it did not, so a rule would be required for 20 minutes separation

It depends on the acceptance arrangements at Dumfries.

If the section north of Dumfries is Track Circuit Block, Dumfries almost certainly has an outermost controlled signal whose overlap leaves crossovers north of the station free. The next box north can send trains into the intervening section at will.

But I suspect the section is Absolute Block. The minimum separation between trains entering at Dumfries now depends on the acceptance conditions on the up at Dumfries. If there's a 14 mile section, it's inconceivable to me that Dumfries doesn't have a first home sufficiently in rear of the crossover that he can accept freely while continuing to shunt within station limits (unless the block regs have changed since my day there would need to be a second home in rear of the crossover(s) too, to give that freedom). There would be no reason (except the inevitable 'please explain'why he shouldn't hold the approaching train at the outer home all day until shunting is complete, then let it follow the train that reversed 'block and block' all the way to Gretna.

Of more interest is how to enforce the minimum timing between successive trains from the north entering at Dumfries. Perhaps it needs a feature request... minimum time between entering trains at every entry point, with a 'trains can start here' option to override it in a situation like this.

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Dumfries station and services 24/12/2020 at 11:10 #135198
Albert
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The section between Dumfries and Annan is roughly 14 miles as well, so the minimum distance between trains will already be kept on that section.

Trains may enter early at Dumfries but won't leave the station until the block is clear to Annan.

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Dumfries station and services 24/12/2020 at 11:35 #135199
Peter Bennet
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kbarber in post 135196 said:

Of more interest is how to enforce the minimum timing between successive trains from the north entering at Dumfries. Perhaps it needs a feature request... minimum time between entering trains at every entry point, with a 'trains can start here' option to override it in a situation like this.
That's possible for the Developer to set a headway time but as you imply it'd apply to all trains entering the sim including ones originating at Dumfries.
It had not occurred to me to do this for this purpose till now.

Peter

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Dumfries station and services 24/12/2020 at 11:42 #135200
Peter Bennet
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Peter Bennet in post 135199 said:
kbarber in post 135196 said:

Of more interest is how to enforce the minimum timing between successive trains from the north entering at Dumfries. Perhaps it needs a feature request... minimum time between entering trains at every entry point, with a 'trains can start here' option to override it in a situation like this.
That's possible for the Developer to set a headway time but as you imply it'd apply to all trains entering the sim including ones originating at Dumfries.
It had not occurred to me to do this for this purpose till now.

Peter
I've put the idea of an override on MANTIS.

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Dumfries station and services 24/12/2020 at 17:15 #135215
whatlep
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For information, the GSW line is beset with long block sections all the way south from Kilmarnock. I have battle scars from the line having been Traffic Manager in Kilmarnock nigh on 40 years ago. Nothing has changed since then, other than some of the block sections getting longer as intermediate boxes have been abolished, or kept switched out most of the time.

The block sections are
Kilmarnock - Mauchline (when switched in)
Mauchline - New Cumnock
New Cumnock - Kirkconnel
Kirkconnel - Thornhill
Thornhill - Holywood
Holywood - Dumfries

In my day, there were also boxes at Hurlford, Barony Jn and Auchinleck, the latter two only open in the mornings for coal traffic to Barony colliery and Auchinleck yard. When Mauchline is switched out, the section becomes Kilmarnock - New Cumnock and that is the determining section for train intervals. At most 2 per hour. In practice less. Even when Mauchline is switched in, the practical number of trains per hour between Kilmarnock and Dumfries remains two per hour, though three is theoretically possible.

For my more detail, see my 2016 articles in issues 178/179 of the Signalling Record (journal of the Signalling Record Society). The attached signalling plan from 2009 may also be helpful.

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Last edited: 24/12/2020 at 17:16 by whatlep
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Dumfries station and services 24/12/2020 at 21:32 #135221
Albert
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In that case Holywood-Dumfries is the first section 'off sim', and it is just over 3 miles in length.

From the exit of Thornhill Loop to Holywood signalbox appears to be about 10 miles. The distance between two subsequent trains entering from destinations north of Dumfries is thus determined by this length as there are no points at Holywood. With a line speed of 70mph trains ought to enter at least ~9 minutes apart then if they are not reversing at Dumfries.

But in all honesty I think we are chasing a nonexistent problem as the nearly 14 mile section between Dumfries and Annan already imposes that the trains passing through Annan are at least ~12 minutes apart (for a 60-80mph line speed.) You just get a sort-of 'advance notice' of a train if you see a second train entering at Dumfries while the block section is still occupied!

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Last edited: 24/12/2020 at 21:39 by Albert
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Dumfries station and services 24/12/2020 at 21:56 #135222
clive
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kbarber in post 135196 said:

It depends on the acceptance arrangements at Dumfries.

If the section north of Dumfries is Track Circuit Block, Dumfries almost certainly has an outermost controlled signal whose overlap leaves crossovers north of the station free. The next box north can send trains into the intervening section at will.

But I suspect the section is Absolute Block. The minimum separation between trains entering at Dumfries now depends on the acceptance conditions on the up at Dumfries. If there's a 14 mile section, it's inconceivable to me that Dumfries doesn't have a first home sufficiently in rear of the crossover that he can accept freely while continuing to shunt within station limits (unless the block regs have changed since my day there would need to be a second home in rear of the crossover(s) too, to give that freedom). There would be no reason (except the inevitable 'please explain'why he shouldn't hold the approaching train at the outer home all day until shunting is complete, then let it follow the train that reversed 'block and block' all the way to Gretna.
Based on a 2004 diagram, it's AB. The distant D42 (Y/YY/G) is at 90m29c, with the first track circuit starting at 91m13c, the first stop signal D46 (R/Y/G) at 91m17c, then D51 (R/S/Y/YY/G) at 91m34c, box at 91m60c, platform at 91m62c to 91m69c, D77 (R/Y/YY/G) at 91m71c, D83 (R/Y/G) at 91m79c, trailing crossover points at 92m06c, D95 (R/G) at 92m17c, overlap ends at 92m26c, then non-track-circuited towards Annan.

At Annan there's the distant 2 at 105m50c, home 3 (R/S/Y/G and #4) at 106m45c, facing crossover at 106m53c, station at 107m12c, starter 4 at 107m21c, and loop end points at 107m40c; at the time this diagram was drawn it was then single line (TCB) all the way to Gretna.

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Dumfries station and services 24/12/2020 at 22:46 #135224
Albert
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whatlep's diagram indicates the signals you mentioned are still in place (but doesn't give their exact mileages.)

Although, how many of the Dumfries signals are implemented in the sim, I don't know. Given there are two approach berths, the sim at least implements the 14 mile section and a station section.

I'd suggest to wait for mjkerr's response to all of this before focusing too much on details. I don't think we need to do anything because (a) a train could be held in Thornhill loop, (b) the sim doesn't know whether Mauchline and/or Hurlford is switched in. If Mauchline is switched in, no section up to Kilmarnock, where trains can enter from various directions, is longer than ~15 miles.

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Last edited: 24/12/2020 at 22:49 by Albert
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Dumfries station and services 25/12/2020 at 00:00 #135228
whatlep
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Albert in post 135224 said:
whatlep's diagram indicates the signals you mentioned are still in place (but doesn't give their exact mileages.)

Files attached showing all the signal locations for Holywood, Annan & Dumfries, plus a photo of the northern end of Dumfries panel. Both from 2010.

By the way, the length of a block section in miles/ kilometres isn't the critical factor. It's the time taken to proceed through it, plus the time required to allow the outermost distant signal to be seen at clear. Less of an issue these days with relatively small quantities of freights travelling at 25-45mph.




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Dumfries station and services 25/12/2020 at 07:49 #135250
mjkerr
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Albert in post 135224 said:
I'd suggest to wait for mjkerr's response to all of this before focusing too much on details

Apologies, I think we have entered the realms of not required now

The issue I encountered was creating the
Carlisle - Dumfries - Carlisle
service

Both timetables I tested only have the service in one direction, there is no return
I have not yet tested such a service as I was waiting to see what the best solution would be

I have since realised it is the Annan Detail panel, and can effectively be ignored
Quite similar to the Motherwell Detail panel, which again due to small errors can effectively be ignored
So long as the same service does not appear twice, and using a rule prevents this

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