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TCF and the adjacent line

You are here: Home > Forum > General > General questions, comments, and issues > TCF and the adjacent line

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TCF and the adjacent line 09/07/2021 at 11:42 #140490
bugsy
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1695 posts 		I’m playing a Doncaster South sim at the moment and have just had a ‘TCF’ which has got me thinking.

If the first train to arrive at the TCF is on the adjacent line and the signaller is supposed to bring that train to a stop “at an appropriate” signal and 'Ask the driver to examine the line', in some circumstances, in SimSig (if not in real life even), that signal could be some distance away from the TCF with several ‘Automatic’ signal in between.
In this screenshot, I have highlighted signal 37 at Frinkley Lane crossing which is the first signal that I have control of before a potential TCF (indicated) at Hough Lane crossing.

Am I obliged to follow the course of action outlined above? If so, it would mean that that train would have to travel some considerable distance at 20mph and stop at 4 signals to report back.
…..
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Everything that you make will be useful - providing it's made of chocolate.
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TCF and the adjacent line 09/07/2021 at 11:49 #140491
9pN1SEAp
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1102 posts 		You could ask S&T nicely to use F11 to set back and hold the signal currently at YY...
Jamie S (JAMS)
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TCF and the adjacent line 09/07/2021 at 12:06 #140492
jc92
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3629 posts 		In real life, you could stop him, advise him of the circumstances and ask him to call back at signal X for further instructions, even if it shows a proceed aspect. It isn't possible in Simsig currently.

p.s. did you stop 1A67, assuming it "left" the occupied TC?
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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TCF and the adjacent line 09/07/2021 at 12:20 #140493
Hap
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985 posts
Online 		bugsy in post 140490 said:
I’m playing a Doncaster South sim at the moment and have just had a ‘TCF’ which has got me thinking.

If the first train to arrive at the TCF is on the adjacent line and the signaller is supposed to bring that train to a stop “at an appropriate” signal and 'Ask the driver to examine the line', in some circumstances, in SimSig (if not in real life even), that signal could be some distance away from the TCF with several ‘Automatic’ signal in between.
In this screenshot, I have highlighted signal 37 at Frinkley Lane crossing which is the first signal that I have control of before a potential TCF (indicated) at Hough Lane crossing.

Am I obliged to follow the course of action outlined above? If so, it would mean that that train would have to travel some considerable distance at 20mph and stop at 4 signals to report back.
…..

First train to pass on an adjacent line.

If the first train to pass on a line immediately next to the affected line
before the affected line is examined, the driver of this train must be
told:
• what is happening
• the locations between which the adjacent line is affected by the
track circuit
• to pass the affected portion of line at caution
• to report as soon as possible if anything is wrong.

So, (and I'm open to correction) Where you have the emergency replacement on would be acceptable to inform driver on the adjacent line what has happened and where they need to examine from. The issue with Simsig limitations is that you would have to ask them to PSAD and examine that signal, then continue to ask them to examine all the way to the next signal after the failure area.

Signaller can also contact the driver via the GSM-r by direct call (if known train is at stand normally at a station or signal), or send a "text" message on the radio to "contact signaller" which the driver can acknowledge when safe to do so.
How to report an issue: www.SimSig.co.uk/Wiki/Show?page=usertrack:reportanissue
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The following user said thank you: bugsy
TCF and the adjacent line 09/07/2021 at 12:49 #140494
bugsy
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1695 posts 		jc92 in post 140492 said:
In real life, you could stop him, advise him of the circumstances and ask him to call back at signal X for further instructions, even if it shows a proceed aspect. It isn't possible in Simsig currently.

p.s. did you stop 1A67, assuming it "left" the occupied TC?
1A67 had already passed the section of track where the TCF occurred. The next train, 1Y88, which was on the affected line, stopped at the preceding signal and the usual instructions were given to the driver.
Everything that you make will be useful - providing it's made of chocolate.
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TCF and the adjacent line 09/07/2021 at 12:56 #140495
bugsy
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1695 posts 		9pN1SEAp in post 140491 said:
You could ask S&T nicely to use F11 to set back and hold the signal currently at YY... :)
This is useful to know. I will remember this (hopefully) for future use. F11 has some interesting options. Another being that I could set the TCF to 'unoccupied', cancel the route through the TCF, set the route through the Up Loop and reinstate the TCF to 'occupied' thus avoiding following trains having to stop.
Everything that you make will be useful - providing it's made of chocolate.
Last edited: 09/07/2021 at 12:57 by bugsy
Reason: None given
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TCF and the adjacent line 09/07/2021 at 13:10 #140496
headshot119
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4869 posts 		You could also take a look at this thread https://www.SimSig.co.uk/Forum/ThreadView/50833?postId=127361
"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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The following users said thank you: Hap, Meld, UKTrainMan
TCF and the adjacent line 09/07/2021 at 13:21 #140497
Hap
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985 posts
Online 		bugsy in post 140495 said:
9pN1SEAp in post 140491 said:
You could ask S&T nicely to use F11 to set back and hold the signal currently at YY... :)
This is useful to know. I will remember this (hopefully) for future use. F11 has some interesting options. Another being that I could set the TCF to 'unoccupied', cancel the route through the TCF, set the route through the Up Loop and reinstate the TCF to 'occupied' thus avoiding following trains having to stop.
Surely this method would then make the "SOWC - Showing occupied when clear" feature completely irrelevant.
How to report an issue: www.SimSig.co.uk/Wiki/Show?page=usertrack:reportanissue
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TCF and the adjacent line 09/07/2021 at 16:43 #140502
Dionysusnu
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575 posts 		Hap in post 140497 said:
bugsy in post 140495 said:
9pN1SEAp in post 140491 said:
You could ask S&T nicely to use F11 to set back and hold the signal currently at YY... :)
This is useful to know. I will remember this (hopefully) for future use. F11 has some interesting options. Another being that I could set the TCF to 'unoccupied', cancel the route through the TCF, set the route through the Up Loop and reinstate the TCF to 'occupied' thus avoiding following trains having to stop.
Surely this method would then make the "SOWC - Showing occupied when clear" feature completely irrelevant.

I've been told that this is possible in some interlockings in real life, in order to release the route locking, after the necessary precautions have been taken to assure that the route is definitely safe to release.
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TCF and the adjacent line 09/07/2021 at 16:46 #140503
headshot119
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4869 posts 		Dionysusnu in post 140502 said:
Hap in post 140497 said:
bugsy in post 140495 said:
9pN1SEAp in post 140491 said:
You could ask S&T nicely to use F11 to set back and hold the signal currently at YY... :)
This is useful to know. I will remember this (hopefully) for future use. F11 has some interesting options. Another being that I could set the TCF to 'unoccupied', cancel the route through the TCF, set the route through the Up Loop and reinstate the TCF to 'occupied' thus avoiding following trains having to stop.
Surely this method would then make the "SOWC - Showing occupied when clear" feature completely irrelevant.

I've been told that this is possible in some interlockings in real life, in order to release the route locking, after the necessary precautions have been taken to assure that the route is definitely safe to release.
It is possible, but not common in my experience, for routes to be released in this situation.
"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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The following user said thank you: Dionysusnu
TCF and the adjacent line 09/07/2021 at 17:04 #140505
geswedey
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192 posts 		headshot119 in post 140503 said:
Dionysusnu in post 140502 said:
Hap in post 140497 said:
bugsy in post 140495 said:
9pN1SEAp in post 140491 said:
You could ask S&T nicely to use F11 to set back and hold the signal currently at YY... :)
This is useful to know. I will remember this (hopefully) for future use. F11 has some interesting options. Another being that I could set the TCF to 'unoccupied', cancel the route through the TCF, set the route through the Up Loop and reinstate the TCF to 'occupied' thus avoiding following trains having to stop.
Surely this method would then make the "SOWC - Showing occupied when clear" feature completely irrelevant.

I've been told that this is possible in some interlockings in real life, in order to release the route locking, after the necessary precautions have been taken to assure that the route is definitely safe to release.
It is possible, but not common in my experience, for routes to be released in this situation.
Agreed in my time in Anglia Control route releasing did happen but it wasn't very often.

Glyn
Glyn Calvert ACIRO
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The following users said thank you: Dionysusnu, headshot119
TCF and the adjacent line 09/07/2021 at 17:10 #140506
JamesN
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1574 posts
Online 		Similarly it's very rarely done here on Western Route - generally speaking to get someone to release the route controls you have to pull them away from diagnosing and fixing your fault, as it's often the same person!
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The following users said thank you: headshot119, Dionysusnu, Hap
TCF and the adjacent line 09/07/2021 at 17:15 #140507
GeoffM
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6282 posts 		geswedey in post 140505 said:
headshot119 in post 140503 said:
Dionysusnu in post 140502 said:
Hap in post 140497 said:
bugsy in post 140495 said:
9pN1SEAp in post 140491 said:
You could ask S&T nicely to use F11 to set back and hold the signal currently at YY... :)
This is useful to know. I will remember this (hopefully) for future use. F11 has some interesting options. Another being that I could set the TCF to 'unoccupied', cancel the route through the TCF, set the route through the Up Loop and reinstate the TCF to 'occupied' thus avoiding following trains having to stop.
Surely this method would then make the "SOWC - Showing occupied when clear" feature completely irrelevant.

I've been told that this is possible in some interlockings in real life, in order to release the route locking, after the necessary precautions have been taken to assure that the route is definitely safe to release.
It is possible, but not common in my experience, for routes to be released in this situation.
Agreed in my time in Anglia Control route releasing did happen but it wasn't very often.

Glyn
It would normally be an "all wheels stop" in at least the affected interlocking. ie every single train in the interlocking area(s) affected to be stopped. Possibly adjacent ones depending on the boundary. The amount of delays that would cause usually far outweighs cautioning trains one-by-one.

In this situation false occupying and clearing the tracks in sequence past the signal would be a safer bet, and likely simpler to effect. Occupy overlap TC, occupy points TC, clear overlap TC, clear points TC.
SimSig Boss
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TCF and the adjacent line 09/07/2021 at 19:40 #140509
bugsy
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1695 posts 		Hap in post 140497 said:
bugsy in post 140495 said:
9pN1SEAp in post 140491 said:
You could ask S&T nicely to use F11 to set back and hold the signal currently at YY... :)
This is useful to know. I will remember this (hopefully) for future use. F11 has some interesting options. Another being that I could set the TCF to 'unoccupied', cancel the route through the TCF, set the route through the Up Loop and reinstate the TCF to 'occupied' thus avoiding following trains having to stop.
Surely this method would then make the "SOWC - Showing occupied when clear" feature completely irrelevant.
Are you saying that after the first train has reported that the line is clear, you can set the TC to 'unoccupied' so that all following trains get a clear run?
Everything that you make will be useful - providing it's made of chocolate.
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TCF and the adjacent line 09/07/2021 at 19:43 #140510
headshot119
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4869 posts 		bugsy in post 140509 said:
Hap in post 140497 said:
bugsy in post 140495 said:
9pN1SEAp in post 140491 said:
You could ask S&T nicely to use F11 to set back and hold the signal currently at YY... :)
This is useful to know. I will remember this (hopefully) for future use. F11 has some interesting options. Another being that I could set the TCF to 'unoccupied', cancel the route through the TCF, set the route through the Up Loop and reinstate the TCF to 'occupied' thus avoiding following trains having to stop.
Surely this method would then make the "SOWC - Showing occupied when clear" feature completely irrelevant.
Are you saying that after the first train has reported that the line is clear, you can set the TC to 'unoccupied' so that all following trains get a clear run?
No, in the real world, once the first train has examined the line and reported it's findings, you would still need to talk subsequent trains passed the signal at danger until S&T have resolved the fault.
"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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TCF and the adjacent line 09/07/2021 at 20:01 #140512
bugsy
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1695 posts 		headshot119 in post 140510 said:
bugsy in post 140509 said:
Hap in post 140497 said:
bugsy in post 140495 said:
9pN1SEAp in post 140491 said:
You could ask S&T nicely to use F11 to set back and hold the signal currently at YY... :)
This is useful to know. I will remember this (hopefully) for future use. F11 has some interesting options. Another being that I could set the TCF to 'unoccupied', cancel the route through the TCF, set the route through the Up Loop and reinstate the TCF to 'occupied' thus avoiding following trains having to stop.
Surely this method would then make the "SOWC - Showing occupied when clear" feature completely irrelevant.
Are you saying that after the first train has reported that the line is clear, you can set the TC to 'unoccupied' so that all following trains get a clear run?
No, in the real world, once the first train has examined the line and reported it's findings, you would still need to talk subsequent trains passed the signal at danger until S&T have resolved the fault.
This is what I would have done in any case. Thanks for clarifying it for me.
Everything that you make will be useful - providing it's made of chocolate.
Last edited: 10/07/2021 at 09:35 by bugsy
Reason: None given
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TCF and the adjacent line 09/07/2021 at 22:32 #140517
Jay_G
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52 posts 		Don’t think it helps that modern CBI interlockings don’t have the “route release” functionality available (ie pick/unpick individual relays). Hence why some workstations + interlockings have it available to the signaller
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TCF and the adjacent line 15/07/2021 at 03:20 #140583
Giantray
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330 posts 		geswedey in post 140505 said:
headshot119 in post 140503 said:
Dionysusnu in post 140502 said:
Hap in post 140497 said:
bugsy in post 140495 said:
9pN1SEAp in post 140491 said:
You could ask S&T nicely to use F11 to set back and hold the signal currently at YY... :)
This is useful to know. I will remember this (hopefully) for future use. F11 has some interesting options. Another being that I could set the TCF to 'unoccupied', cancel the route through the TCF, set the route through the Up Loop and reinstate the TCF to 'occupied' thus avoiding following trains having to stop.
Surely this method would then make the "SOWC - Showing occupied when clear" feature completely irrelevant.

I've been told that this is possible in some interlockings in real life, in order to release the route locking, after the necessary precautions have been taken to assure that the route is definitely safe to release.
It is possible, but not common in my experience, for routes to be released in this situation.
Agreed in my time in Anglia Control route releasing did happen but it wasn't very often.

Glyn
In my 25 years spent signalling at London Bridge I must have requested and had done a "Release of Signalling Controls" about a dozen times. Use of this method depends of several factors. Mainly depends on the interlocking location, because an S&T Tech would be required to attend that location to do the "release". At London Bridge ASC, the London Bridge area interlocking was downstairs so it was easy for the Box Techncal Officer to carry out this procedure, but in remote interlockings ( eg Charing Cross or Parks Bridge), a Tech would be required to attend.

At Three Bridge ROC we have two modern features called "TREL" and "PREL". These are purely Signaller operated and allows the Signaller to release a route, or move locked points in the event of a track circuit failue, negates the use of "Release of Signalling Controls" in the event of track circuit failure.
Retired Professional Railwayman (1981-2023); Pway & S&T (1981-88); Former Signalman/Signaller/ Signalling Trainer (1989-2023) [AB, TCB, Mechanical, NX, WestCad, Hitachi SARS]; Railway Historian (esp.SER, LCDR); Member of The Permanent Way Institution..
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TCF and the adjacent line 15/07/2021 at 20:01 #140597
Dionysusnu
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575 posts 		Giantray in post 140583 said:
geswedey in post 140505 said:
headshot119 in post 140503 said:
Dionysusnu in post 140502 said:
Hap in post 140497 said:
bugsy in post 140495 said:
9pN1SEAp in post 140491 said:
You could ask S&T nicely to use F11 to set back and hold the signal currently at YY... :)
This is useful to know. I will remember this (hopefully) for future use. F11 has some interesting options. Another being that I could set the TCF to 'unoccupied', cancel the route through the TCF, set the route through the Up Loop and reinstate the TCF to 'occupied' thus avoiding following trains having to stop.
Surely this method would then make the "SOWC - Showing occupied when clear" feature completely irrelevant.

I've been told that this is possible in some interlockings in real life, in order to release the route locking, after the necessary precautions have been taken to assure that the route is definitely safe to release.
It is possible, but not common in my experience, for routes to be released in this situation.
Agreed in my time in Anglia Control route releasing did happen but it wasn't very often.

Glyn
In my 25 years spent signalling at London Bridge I must have requested and had done a "Release of Signalling Controls" about a dozen times. Use of this method depends of several factors. Mainly depends on the interlocking location, because an S&T Tech would be required to attend that location to do the "release". At London Bridge ASC, the London Bridge area interlocking was downstairs so it was easy for the Box Techncal Officer to carry out this procedure, but in remote interlockings ( eg Charing Cross or Parks Bridge), a Tech would be required to attend.

At Three Bridge ROC we have two modern features called "TREL" and "PREL". These are purely Signaller operated and allows the Signaller to release a route, or move locked points in the event of a track circuit failue, negates the use of "Release of Signalling Controls" in the event of track circuit failure.

What's the interlocking protection on the TREL and PREL features?
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TCF and the adjacent line 15/07/2021 at 20:20 #140598
Stephen Fulcher
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2024 posts
Online 		Jay_G in post 140517 said:
Don’t think it helps that modern CBI interlockings don’t have the “route release” functionality available (ie pick/unpick individual relays). Hence why some workstations + interlockings have it available to the signaller
You can false energise a track circuit to release Route locking but would be difficult with axle counters (might not be possible at all with some systems).

In nearly twenty years on the S&T I have done it twice, once where a freight had SPAD and ran through a set of points in order to get the levers back normal to enable normal running on the non-affected line, and once when a route locked over a set of points set the wrong way to run anything where there was a fault with the post office sets in a WR E10k interlocking.

Most of the time, the time taken to find a suitable technician who was both competent to do a release and confident enough to actually do it would be disproportionate to actually just fixing the fault.

In the case bugsy shows here, a release wouldn’t achieve anything as if you wanted to move the points in front you could just pull the signal in front of the fault which will then time out, and the points behind aren’t locked anyway.

In ALL circumstances once a failed track section is false fed for a release of controls it has 5to be returned to the failed state before you are allowed to move any train in that interlocking area so you’d still have to talk past.
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