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SN 455s and 377s

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SN 455s and 377s 13/05/2022 at 19:49 #146489
DaveHarries
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Greetings,

I am glad to say that, having asked foir help in a separate thread on a Three Bridges TT, I managed to finish the timetable on the day that the WTT I was basing my work on was in operation (08th May) with 1109 trains in the list. Which is great. I intend to release it after testing: the engineering works will potentially, with the addition of a delay or two, make it more fun! If "Captain Chaos" got his hands on the scenario I based this timetable on...!

Anyway a question regarding 455s and 377s. I have the following train in my list:

5U01 0602 Selhurst T&RSMD - London Victoria, due 0636

this 5U01 arrives at London Victoria (Platform 16) and appears, from RealTimeTrains, to split into two separate workings:

1A94 0702 London Victoria - Brighton
5B06 0707 London Victoria - West Croydon

A screenshot on the "Tiger" system (I have it bookmarked on my phone: it is most useful as I use trains when at work) taken on the day suggests that 1A94 was an 8-carriage set: RTT has it at a max speed of 100mph. Meanwhile 5B06 is given as an EMU with a max speed of 75mph: that train worked 2K11 (0752 West Corydon - London Victoria, via. Norbury) which is also suggested to be an 8-carriage set, presumably a 455.

I presume that would an 8-car 377 and an 4-car 455 would fit in P16 at Victoria at the same time but are their couplers compatible?

Dave

Last edited: 13/05/2022 at 19:50 by DaveHarries
Reason: None given

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SN 455s and 377s 13/05/2022 at 19:58 #146490
headshot119
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Class 377s and Class 455s cannot work in multiple.
"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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SN 455s and 377s 13/05/2022 at 19:58 #146491
i26
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They can't be coupled together.
Railway Employee and Enthusiast. All views are my own.
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SN 455s and 377s 13/05/2022 at 20:01 #146492
DaveHarries
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Thanks both: looks as if I will have to set 5B06's diagram up as a 4-car 377 which will mean a spot of early running perhaps, albeit not seriously so.

Dave

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SN 455s and 377s 13/05/2022 at 20:05 #146493
bill_gensheet
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My money would be on a 12-377 splitting 8 and 4

Just because 5B06 is booked 75mph does not mean a 100 mph unit cannot work it. Probably a lot of that about at present as SN run down and scrap the 455's

You could have a new train type '377-75' for 377's on 75mph diagrams and limit the speed or acceleration.

Last edited: 13/05/2022 at 20:19 by bill_gensheet
Reason: addition

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SN 455s and 377s 13/05/2022 at 21:01 #146494
DaveHarries
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bill_gensheet in post 146493 said:
My money would be on a 12-377 splitting 8 and 4

Just because 5B06 is booked 75mph does not mean a 100 mph unit cannot work it. Probably a lot of that about at present as SN run down and scrap the 455's

You could have a new train type '377-75' for 377's on 75mph diagrams and limit the speed or acceleration.

Thank you for that suggestion which I hadn't considered. Interestingly the Sutton and Epsom diagrams are all 5-car but the West Croydon ones all appear to be 4 car.

Dave

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SN 455s and 377s 13/05/2022 at 21:20 #146495
JamesN
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I’m happy to be corrected, but I sincerely doubt they’d be driven any differently on a diagram timed at 75 rather than 100

Regardless, the linespeed isn’t any different, and there’s very little greater than 75 where these 75mph times trains run.

Send me a PM to remind me Mr Harries and I might be able to sort you out with some stuff when I get home that will be of help.

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SN 455s and 377s 13/05/2022 at 23:19 #146497
Hap
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DaveHarries in post 146494 said:
bill_gensheet in post 146493 said:
My money would be on a 12-377 splitting 8 and 4

Just because 5B06 is booked 75mph does not mean a 100 mph unit cannot work it. Probably a lot of that about at present as SN run down and scrap the 455's

You could have a new train type '377-75' for 377's on 75mph diagrams and limit the speed or acceleration.

Thank you for that suggestion which I hadn't considered. Interestingly the Sutton and Epsom diagrams are all 5-car but the West Croydon ones all appear to be 4 car.

Dave
They're going to be driven at the maximum speed that the train and line speed allows.

So if you normally have a train that's timed at 75mph, it's max speed is 75mph and the max line speed on any given section is above 75... then it'll drive at 75.

If you have a train that has a max permissible speed of 100mph, it's timed at 75mph (normally) and there's sections of line that are at 100 mph. It'll be driven at 100mph and be early in some cases.

I don't know about other TOCs but up here we have DAS...Driver advisory system. It monitors the train speed, distance to next station, it's booked arrival time into that station, changes in line speed, gradients.

It will "advise" the driver of the trains expected ETA at it's next booked station stop. It can also "advise" driver to 'Coast'. But, it's not without it's flaws and can become a nuisance when running late. There's probably a bit more detail in what other advise it gives, It's stuff I don't need to know.

If a service is normally booked as 100mph and ends up with a train that has a lower permissible speed of 75 and the max line speed of any given section is above 75, then that train will still be driven at a max speed of 75 and take a delay.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W90688/2022-05-11/detailed#allox_id=0

This is booked as a 170 at 100. 158 can only do 90. For this service, the time lost was because of the change of set and the lack of an extra engine to get it up the hill from Blair to the summit.

There's no point changing anything in the sim TT wise. If you end up with a train that's faster than the normally booked slower train, then it ends up early if line speed permits it to travel at it's own maximum speed. This is where the DAS comes into play. Some trains have greater acceleration than others and more efficient braking. It's still running in it's booked path and it's still going to be where it needs to be according to it's TT. It happens all the time up here, either standing at stations twiddling your thumbs or chasing your proverbial rear end trying to keep to time.

HAP
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The following user said thank you: DaveHarries
SN 455s and 377s 14/05/2022 at 11:39 #146500
officer dibble
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Dave,

Can confirm on 08/05/22 5U01 was formed 12/377 (468+472+116).

377468+377472 worked 1A94 & 377116 worked 5B06 off VIC.

HTH.

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SN 455s and 377s 14/05/2022 at 11:49 #146501
DaveHarries
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officer dibble in post 146500 said:
Dave,

Can confirm on 08/05/22 5U01 was formed 12/377 (468+472+116).

377468+377472 worked 1A94 & 377116 worked 5B06 off VIC.

HTH.

It does indeed: thanks very much.

Dave

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SN 455s and 377s 14/05/2022 at 15:41 #146503
Steamer
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The Part Time Spotter site has been posting allocations for new and 'on notice' fleets, including the 455s, and may have captured the day you're looking for. See here: https://partimespotter.wordpress.com/
"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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SN 455s and 377s 14/05/2022 at 21:31 #146507
DaveHarries
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Steamer in post 146503 said:
The Part Time Spotter site has been posting allocations for new and 'on notice' fleets, including the 455s, and may have captured the day you're looking for. See here: https://partimespotter.wordpress.com/

Thanks for that link. Nothing on there for 08th May unfortunately but I have bookmarked that.

Dave

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SN 455s and 377s 18/05/2022 at 08:14 #146525
Guts
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DaveHarries in post 146489 said:
Greetings,

I am glad to say that, having asked foir help in a separate thread on a Three Bridges TT, I managed to finish the timetable on the day that the WTT I was basing my work on was in operation (08th May) with 1109 trains in the list. Which is great. I intend to release it after testing: the engineering works will potentially, with the addition of a delay or two, make it more fun! If "Captain Chaos" got his hands on the scenario I based this timetable on...!

Anyway a question regarding 455s and 377s. I have the following train in my list:

5U01 0602 Selhurst T&RSMD - London Victoria, due 0636

this 5U01 arrives at London Victoria (Platform 16) and appears, from RealTimeTrains, to split into two separate workings:

1A94 0702 London Victoria - Brighton
5B06 0707 London Victoria - West Croydon

A screenshot on the "Tiger" system (I have it bookmarked on my phone: it is most useful as I use trains when at work) taken on the day suggests that 1A94 was an 8-carriage set: RTT has it at a max speed of 100mph. Meanwhile 5B06 is given as an EMU with a max speed of 75mph: that train worked 2K11 (0752 West Corydon - London Victoria, via. Norbury) which is also suggested to be an 8-carriage set, presumably a 455.

I presume that would an 8-car 377 and an 4-car 455 would fit in P16 at Victoria at the same time but are their couplers compatible?

Dave
Regarding the 75mph issue, this I believe is a inherited planning run, ie. when Southern ran a 455 on this route the max speed was 75 so that service is always timed as a 75mph service, which would fit in with any other service it followed or followed it. With Southern moving more to 377 and the like, which are capable of 100mph, they won't retime the service and the driver won't necessarily drive slower, but the 75mph path for that service will still work.

As Hap has said the driver may just end up arriving at stations early or the signaller will have to correctly observe regulating points and junctions so as not to put the early running service in front of on time services

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SN 455s and 377s 18/05/2022 at 18:04 #146535
DaveHarries
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Guts in post 146525 said:
Regarding the 75mph issue, this I believe is a inherited planning run, ie. when Southern ran a 455 on this route the max speed was 75 so that service is always timed as a 75mph service, which would fit in with any other service it followed or followed it. With Southern moving more to 377 and the like, which are capable of 100mph, they won't retime the service and the driver won't necessarily drive slower, but the 75mph path for that service will still work.

As Hap has said the driver may just end up arriving at stations early or the signaller will have to correctly observe regulating points and junctions so as not to put the early running service in front of on time services

Hi Guts,

I have had a look at the allocations list which I have been furnished with by the other SimSig member and there are some 455s in the mix along with 377s on the routes in question but RTT logged no early running. I assume the line speed to be 75mph in which case, given that the speed settings for each train type are the maximum speed, it possibly won't matter what I set.

Thanks though.
Dave

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SN 455s and 377s 21/05/2022 at 09:00 #146545
Guts
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DaveHarries in post 146535 said:
Guts in post 146525 said:
Regarding the 75mph issue, this I believe is a inherited planning run, ie. when Southern ran a 455 on this route the max speed was 75 so that service is always timed as a 75mph service, which would fit in with any other service it followed or followed it. With Southern moving more to 377 and the like, which are capable of 100mph, they won't retime the service and the driver won't necessarily drive slower, but the 75mph path for that service will still work.

As Hap has said the driver may just end up arriving at stations early or the signaller will have to correctly observe regulating points and junctions so as not to put the early running service in front of on time services

Hi Guts,

I have had a look at the allocations list which I have been furnished with by the other SimSig member and there are some 455s in the mix along with 377s on the routes in question but RTT logged no early running. I assume the line speed to be 75mph in which case, given that the speed settings for each train type are the maximum speed, it possibly won't matter what I set.

Thanks though.
Dave
What I mean is it's also a train planning thing.

Train Planning is planned on green signals unless there is a dispensation and agreement with the TOC's (or errors).
Every train has a path and these paths have maximum speeds.

Using the West Coast, they wouldn't plan a 110mph LNW in front of a 125mph Avanti without enough time for the LNW to be moved out of the way at a junction such as Ledburn or they might add an extra or early station stop to allow the LNW to escape so to speak.

In the event this cannot be achieved (especially Southbound services) they add time into the schedule because this 125mph path effectively becomes a 110mph path following a slower service.

You're probably right about linespeeds overall, but also, station stops are also a factor, early arrivals but ontime departures.

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