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| Trackworkers on a temporary blocked line what happens 05/09/2022 at 08:56 #147848 | |
Underwood
746 posts |
Hello all, Just something I'm doing on Train Sim and want to make sure it's realistic, I don't know what the set up would be So the scenario is there's a points failure outside London Waterloo affecting the routes in and out of the Up and Down Main Fast. I've checked valid routes on Simsig so I've set it that services booked on the Fast are routed onto the Windsor line. In the case of the player service you leave P11 and the route is set onto the Down Windsor Slow, crossing back to the fast further down. I've placed a couple of track workers on the Up Main Fast inspecting the points, as the line is blocked and the signals collared assuming this would happen, would there be possession 'stop' signs in the Up and Down Fast? Or if trackworkers are on the lines, although 'closed' temporarily, would all lines be blocked until workers have gone? Just wondering how it would work and what the safety procedures are, would drivers be told to look out for track workers nearby and presumably be told the Up and Down Fast is closed? If that makes sense! If need be I can take a screenshot on Simsig of what the signal set up is and a picture in Train Sim to show how I've got it set up there as well Any help appreciated! James Log in to reply |
| Trackworkers on a temporary blocked line what happens 05/09/2022 at 09:11 #147849 | |
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chrisdmadd
226 posts |
So from my point of view as a driver over the years Ive seen this a few times. Im sure others who have worked in the boxes will give a more accurate description. Trains will be routed around the issue if possible until MOM and or S&T arrive. When they arrive, necessary lines will be blocked to allow them to access the track. The MOM, where possible will clamp the points to a preferred direction and then vacate the tracks allowing trains to resume to some degree. S&T may take longer to get to the scene and when they do they look at a more permanent fix. Which may involve another line block to access track and ensure their safety when working. These line blocks are just dictated between signaler and the person requiring the block and no boards are put on the track. The workers could stay in the middle of all the running lines (having agreed a line block where they are currently working) while trains move around them and they just ask for an additional block when they need to return to the lineside, in which case trains will be stopped on certain lines for that. Last edited: 05/09/2022 at 09:17 by chrisdmadd Reason: None given Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Underwood |
| Trackworkers on a temporary blocked line what happens 10/09/2022 at 12:50 #147914 | |
Giantray
330 posts |
Depends on era being signalled because rules and regs regarding track access have changed so much over the years. Today on-track staff cannot gain access to the running lines unless trains are stopped on the lines concerned by taking a formal Line Blockage, even though trains are not running on the line concerned. If access to the workiste means crossing over open lines, they too need to be blocked. Today the Signaller would talk to the person in control of site safety known as a COSS (Controller of Site Safety) and arrange details of the area required to have trains stopped to enable the safety on those going on and working on the track. The use of Additional Protection is now being applied for all Line Blockages, which means additional work for either the COSS, Signaller or both and could also involve other persons. If you are really interested in the full process and different forms of protection used, I suggest reading the Rule Book at https://www.rssb.co.uk/standards/types-of-standards-and-how-they-work/the-rule-book . The whole process is too compilcated to go into on here. Somewhere as busy as Waterloo with as much flexibility as it has, would work around with the points failure in place until end of service rather than have the Signaller have an increase in work load. Despite the failure in place the Signaller has to keep trains moving and busy locations cannot be dealing with line blockages, additional phone calls etc and moving trains together unless absolutely necessary. Retired Professional Railwayman (1981-2023); Pway & S&T (1981-88); Former Signalman/Signaller/ Signalling Trainer (1989-2023) [AB, TCB, Mechanical, NX, WestCad, Hitachi SARS]; Railway Historian (esp.SER, LCDR); Member of The Permanent Way Institution.. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Underwood |
| Trackworkers on a temporary blocked line what happens 14/09/2022 at 17:38 #148010 | |
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Underwood
746 posts |
Thank you very much! I've removed the trackworkers, it is set in 2012, I did kind of think that there would be a safety point especially as this is set in the evening peak would cause carnage to block all lines for access, thanks for the help guys!
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| Trackworkers on a temporary blocked line what happens 14/09/2022 at 20:09 #148016 | |
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TUT
507 posts 
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Just to be clear, Giantray wasn't saying it's unrealistic to have track workers on the track per se. When Giantray says "today on-track staff cannot gain access to the running lines unless trains are stopped on the lines concerned by taking a formal Line Blockage, even though trains are not running on the line concerned" they mean there would need to be a formal line blockage in place on the line being worked on. This is referred to as green zone working -- work is being done on a line that is blocked to traffic. Red zone working is where work is being done on a line that is open to traffic, for example by using lookouts to warn workers of approaching trains. Red zone working used to be common and the absolute abhorrence of it is quite a recent phenomenon. But you can have trains running on lines that are not being worked on quite happily, that's fine. The problem comes with access to the line. Let's say you've got only two tracks and you want to work on the down line and you can access the down line just fine. Well then you can block the down line and run on the up no problem. But let's say you've got 8 tracks and you want to work on line 5. Well that's fine you block line 5 and you can have trains running on all the other lines. But how do you get to line 5 in the first place? You're probably gonna have to cross other tracks, which will need to be blocked with a formal line blockage just for you to get to line 5 in the first place. That block could in principle be taken and then given up once staff were on line 5, but the time taken to do that would cause such a penalty at a place like Waterloo that you're unlikely to bother, you'll just work around. Not to mention the delays caused by having line 5 out of action for the duration of the work. It's often easier at a busy location for staff to just come back at night. On a simple two track railway though I can assure you that one line can be blocked for staff to work while the other line is open to traffic. Track workers can also be seen while trains are running if they are working separated. As long as they're far enough from an open line they can walk alongside the line and even do some kinds of work as long as there's sufficient separation between them and any moving trains.
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| Trackworkers on a temporary blocked line what happens 14/09/2022 at 22:19 #148017 | |
postal
5190 posts |
One thing that has concerned me for a number of years (and has been ventilated elsewhere by others but not myself) is the risk assessment process. The safety of anyone working on the railway is a matter of vital importance and we must never lose sight of that fact. However, does the risk assessment for any blockade include a risk assessment for those passengers forced to leave the train and take a bus for part of the journey disrupted by the blockade? Is an assessment included in regard to passengers suffering harm while entering or leaving trains (although I have no idea whether the granularity of the data includes whether the passenger was manipulating a heavy suitcase when harm befell), using subways or footbridges and where necessary the associated stairways, boarding or disembarking from the replacement bus service and travelling on the bus rather than the train. If the risk assessment does not include those factors when attempting to make the risk as low as reasonably practicable, then the assessments carried out by the railway are no more than box-ticking exercises to ensure that the direct risk to people working on the railway has been covered but which bear no relation to the real risk to all parties affected by a blockade. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Trackworkers on a temporary blocked line what happens 16/09/2022 at 15:48 #148030 | |
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Ron_J
329 posts |
TUT in post 148016 said:This is referred to as green zone working -- work is being done on a line that is blocked to traffic. Red zone working is where work is being done on a line that is open to traffic, for example by using lookouts to warn workers of approaching trains.Just a point of pedantry, the terms 'red zone' and 'green zone' haven't been officially used for around a decade now. Officially they are referred to as 'warning safe systems of work' and 'protected safe systems of work' respectively. You still find people saying them (and until the introduction of RailHub a few months ago we still used the Green Zone Access Co-ordinator or GZAC software to book line blockages) but the terms don't exist in either 019 or the Rule Book. Log in to reply The following users said thank you: TUT, Hap |
| Trackworkers on a temporary blocked line what happens 28/09/2022 at 07:28 #148174 | |
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Giantray
330 posts |
Ron_J in post 148030 said:[quote=TUT;post=148016]...... Green Zone Access Co-ordinator or GZAC software to book line blockages) but the terms don't exist in either 019 or the Rule Book.Yeah I found this strange too, do not know why it wasn't changed to Track Access Co-Ordinators (TACOs) would have been a nice fun acronym! On-track staff are still allowed to work on the line without a Line Blockage if they have what is called "Assisted Lookout Protection" in place. This is generally a Train activated warning system that the Lookout has, so the Lookout is not only relying on their sight of trains. Also, despite what a lot of Signallers think, Staff are still permitted to walk on the line without Line Blockages as defined in the Rule Book. A lot of work goes on and about the line that the Signaller may not know about. Retired Professional Railwayman (1981-2023); Pway & S&T (1981-88); Former Signalman/Signaller/ Signalling Trainer (1989-2023) [AB, TCB, Mechanical, NX, WestCad, Hitachi SARS]; Railway Historian (esp.SER, LCDR); Member of The Permanent Way Institution.. Log in to reply |