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Phoning next box for early running trains - suggestion

You are here: Home > Forum > General > General questions, comments, and issues > Phoning next box for early running trains - suggestion

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Phoning next box for early running trains - suggestion 21/02/2024 at 04:47 #155426
poolep
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Whilst using many of the Sims I own I will receive a message from an adjacent panel/box asking if I accept an early running train (often freight). I can then either accept the early train or ask the sending panel/box to hold the train until it's correct time.

However I believe there should be an option to request permission from the receiving panel/box before sending a train that is, let's say, more than 10 minutes early.

I'm currently playing the Sheffield Sim. So for example I'll get a message from Leeds/Ardsley asking if I'll accept 6Mxx running 34 minutes early.
I accept.
I can then just send the train to Tapton Junction and chesterfield without asking that panel if they will accept the early running train.

If that option was introduced I believe it would allow much more realism and an extra degree of planning on what to do with the train if they won't accept it

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The following users said thank you: andyallen4014, DaveHarries
Phoning next box for early running trains - suggestion 21/02/2024 at 05:36 #155427
ajax103
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poolep in post 155426 said:
Whilst using many of the Sims I own I will receive a message from an adjacent panel/box asking if I accept an early running train (often freight). I can then either accept the early train or ask the sending panel/box to hold the train until it's correct time.

However I believe there should be an option to request permission from the receiving panel/box before sending a train that is, let's say, more than 10 minutes early.

I'm currently playing the Sheffield Sim. So for example I'll get a message from Leeds/Ardsley asking if I'll accept 6Mxx running 34 minutes early.
I accept.
I can then just send the train to Tapton Junction and chesterfield without asking that panel if they will accept the early running train.

If that option was introduced I believe it would allow much more realism and an extra degree of planning on what to do with the train if they won't accept it
I disagree slightly, if you were to have the option above than you should have the option of asking the next signaller for that area if covered by another PSB/ASC/IECC etc if they would accept a early running service or if they rather you hold it to time because 1. it might well be the case that while you can accept a early running service that the next area can't or won't for a reason and you have to use your own controlled area to loop it to hold it to time and 2. As the loader already has this option for some not all simulations for the player to be asked if they would accept a early running service or hold to time, surely it's feasible to introduce the same in the other direction where you ask the next controlling box if they would accept a early running service or not as the case might be.

I don't think you should just get asked if you will accept a early running service from Leeds and than present it to Chesterfield without asking them as Chesterfield is covered by another signalling area but that's my view.

I wouldn't have thought it be something loader related but rather specific to the simulation, I'm sure one of the usual SimSig developers/management team will be along to explain if this is possible.

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Phoning next box for early running trains - suggestion 21/02/2024 at 10:08 #155430
jc92
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that's exactly Whats being suggested.

Not a bad idea for some added authenticity and adding some forethought and planning in, although I'm not sure on the practicality of it.

1. How does the off sim signaller decide? is it a random yes/no or is some logic involved with regard to the timetable.

2. How is it policed? If I send a train early off sim, do I get a points penalty or not. If so what about a train that departs my panel OT but exits sim a few mins early due to having some slack in its timetable.

Its worth adding that nowadays at least, a lot of (but not all, area dependent) early running decisions are made at a control level and carried out by signalling staff, and this normally precipitates the train being accepted at destination first, then early running agreed backwards, especially when it can't be regulated mid route.

For example an early running Cricklewood - Acton service requires Acton yard to accept it early, followed by Western route accepting it early, followed by Anglia route accepting it early over the NLL, followed by East Midlands route accepting it early out of Cricklewood. If anyone can't take it, then it doesn't happen as it can't be held anywhere once it departs.

"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
Last edited: 21/02/2024 at 10:13 by jc92
Reason: None given

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Phoning next box for early running trains - suggestion 21/02/2024 at 10:50 #155431
flabberdacks
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Just send it, I say
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Phoning next box for early running trains - suggestion 21/02/2024 at 11:16 #155432
9pN1SEAp
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The phone calls on some of the current sims are of somewhat varying use. On Swindon (from Reading/TVSC) they are okay, as you have decisions to swap lines, or hold them back if they are due a timed stop for crew change.

However, on the Derby sim the calls from Chesterfield are often "Can I send this Class 1 a couple minutes early?" or "Do you mind if I pop this Class 6 in front of an express"!

And further to Joe's point a lot of freights have regulating stops for these reasons (and SimSig doesn't tell you whether there are regulating stops in advance of your sim).

Jamie S (JAMS)
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Phoning next box for early running trains - suggestion 21/02/2024 at 11:25 #155433
ajax103
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Edited to prevent disagreements
Last edited: 21/02/2024 at 13:00 by ajax103
Reason: None given

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Phoning next box for early running trains - suggestion 21/02/2024 at 11:34 #155434
Dick
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You clearly didn't read the original post. The part that you disagree with is exactly the part the OP disagrees with.
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Phoning next box for early running trains - suggestion 21/02/2024 at 19:47 #155436
poolep
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I would guess, when phoning a yard to accept a train that the time taken to answer the phone is random. Sometimes they'll answer in a couple of rings, sometimes it takes ages.

I would suggest, if implemented, the next panel/box would randomly accept of deny acceptance of an early train. Maybe the chance of a denial be set to something low - like 10-15%.

I would also suggest that if you send an early train - and let's define early as 10m:01s or more without first phoning then you get penalised.

The phone call to the next panel/box would sometimes have to be made as much as 15-30 minute in advance to give you chance to regulate the train at a suitable location

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Phoning next box for early running trains - suggestion 21/02/2024 at 20:27 #155438
Late Turn
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I've long since held the view that the trigger for a phone call from an adjacent box, and information contained therein, should be that an early-running train will enter the area ahead of one that it should follow rather than because it is more than an arbitrary number if minutes early even of all trains will still enter in the correct order.

I'd suggest that the same would be more appropriate here – that a phone call could be required prior to sending a train early if it means running it out of booked order, with the exception that it's not necessary if the train that it should follow is itself running late enough that it'll arrive at the next regulating location after the early-runner should've done anyway.

I like the idea, though. At the moment, it's too easy just to keep an early train running with no regard for the potential consequences.

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The following users said thank you: Dionysusnu, poolep
Phoning next box for early running trains - suggestion 22/02/2024 at 04:16 #155446
flabberdacks
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The consequences are felt just fine in chained games.

Players can regulate themselves without needing to be arbitrarily penalised by the sim. It makes the experience hostile to new players, who unless they come from a signalling background, already have a great deal to learn.

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Phoning next box for early running trains - suggestion 22/02/2024 at 08:58 #155447
kbarber
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flabberdacks in post 155446 said:
The consequences are felt just fine in chained games.

Players can regulate themselves without needing to be arbitrarily penalised by the sim. It makes the experience hostile to new players, who unless they come from a signalling background, already have a great deal to learn.
So it might be best to confine this phone-ahead feature to higher difficulty levels (and exclude it entirely at sim exits where a chained sim is in place).

More generally, the option to refuse an out-of-order early runner would be no bad thing; the example of the sim running a cl6 in front of a cl1 is a particular annoyance if you've no way of stopping it. Even there, it would be worth making it a bit more sophisticated than just "can I run this please?" What the receiving bobby needs is to know whether the train booked to run first is itself late, and by how much, so they can guesstimate the impact of the early runner when it arrives on their panel (and some will decide they can afford putting a couple of minutes in an express that has recovery time while others will take the safer 'booked route, booked order' option).

It could all get quite complicated; I suspect it needs both core code and sim code to work well. But we seem now to have a product that gets all the main aspects right and we're talking about relatively minor enhancements, so I'd say this is worth putting on the list.

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Phoning next box for early running trains - suggestion 22/02/2024 at 10:15 #155448
poolep
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flabberdacks in post 155446 said:
The consequences are felt just fine in chained games.

Players can regulate themselves without needing to be arbitrarily penalised by the sim. It makes the experience hostile to new players, who unless they come from a signalling background, already have a great deal to learn.
What proportion of users "chain" and what proportion use "stand alone"?

I for one have never chained with another user / SIM.

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Phoning next box for early running trains - suggestion 22/02/2024 at 10:33 #155449
jc92
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kbarber in post 155447 said:
flabberdacks in post 155446 said:
The consequences are felt just fine in chained games.

Players can regulate themselves without needing to be arbitrarily penalised by the sim. It makes the experience hostile to new players, who unless they come from a signalling background, already have a great deal to learn.
So it might be best to confine this phone-ahead feature to higher difficulty levels (and exclude it entirely at sim exits where a chained sim is in place).

More generally, the option to refuse an out-of-order early runner would be no bad thing; the example of the sim running a cl6 in front of a cl1 is a particular annoyance if you've no way of stopping it. Even there, it would be worth making it a bit more sophisticated than just "can I run this please?" What the receiving bobby needs is to know whether the train booked to run first is itself late, and by how much, so they can guesstimate the impact of the early runner when it arrives on their panel (and some will decide they can afford putting a couple of minutes in an express that has recovery time while others will take the safer 'booked route, booked order' option).

It could all get quite complicated; I suspect it needs both core code and sim code to work well. But we seem now to have a product that gets all the main aspects right and we're talking about relatively minor enhancements, so I'd say this is worth putting on the list.
The line up feature allows you to check late/early running in advance of a train entering so its possible to run a line up for the first location after the entry point and see what's due before the train in question and how it's running.

"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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Phoning next box for early running trains - suggestion 22/02/2024 at 10:53 #155450
Sidestick Priority
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Quote:
The line up feature allows you to check late/early running in advance of a train entering so its possible to run a line up for the first location after the entry point and see what's due before the train in question and how it's running.
The line up feature is fantastic, I use it regularly now during all my games; not least to check what the computer signaller has decided to send in front of my class 1 non-stoppers so that I can plan accordingly.

This leads me to wonder whether it would be feasible to implement a feature where we could adjust the "train entering system" time for individual trains from the line-up screen, so that in the event of say a Class 6 being scheduled to enter 4 minutes ahead of a non-stopper, you could dial in a 5 minute delay to ensure that the Class 6 enters immediately behind.
I appreciate that this may be done by editing timetables, but I was thinking more of an easier 'on the fly' way of aiding your AI colleague with regulating decisions.


JAS

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Phoning next box for early running trains - suggestion 23/02/2024 at 05:09 #155464
flabberdacks
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poolep in post 155448 said:
flabberdacks in post 155446 said:
The consequences are felt just fine in chained games.

Players can regulate themselves without needing to be arbitrarily penalised by the sim. It makes the experience hostile to new players, who unless they come from a signalling background, already have a great deal to learn.
What proportion of users "chain" and what proportion use "stand alone"?

I for one have never chained with another user / SIM.
If you ever get a chance to do it, give it a go. It really enhances the experience, adds an extra dimension to the decisions you make. Simsig is at its best when there's a human on the next panel and they need to be able to handle what you're sending.

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Phoning next box for early running trains - suggestion 23/02/2024 at 09:40 #155465
Giantray
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Sidestick Priority in post 155450 said:
[quote]

This leads me to wonder whether it would be feasible to implement a feature where we could adjust the "train entering system" time for individual trains from the line-up screen, so that in the event of say a Class 6 being scheduled to enter 4 minutes ahead of a non-stopper, you could dial in a 5 minute delay to ensure that the Class 6 enters immediately behind.
I appreciate that this may be done by editing timetables, but I was thinking more of an easier 'on the fly' way of aiding your AI colleague with regulating decisions.


JAS
You are now talking Traffic Management and that is a whole different ball game to what Simsig replicates.

Retired Professional Railwayman (1981-2023); Pway & S&T (1981-88); Former Signalman/Signaller/ Signalling Trainer (1989-2023) [AB, TCB, Mechanical, NX, WestCad, Hitachi SARS]; Railway Historian (esp.SER, LCDR); Member of The Permanent Way Institution..
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