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| Allowances 04/04/2010 at 07:41 #1056 | |
pilotman
189 posts |
Happy Easter!. Can anyone explain how the path and Eng allowances are applied in the Sims? Thanks (I can't find anything in the Wiki)
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| Allowances 04/04/2010 at 07:41 #8163 | |
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pilotman
189 posts |
Happy Easter!. Can anyone explain how the path and Eng allowances are applied in the Sims? Thanks (I can't find anything in the Wiki)
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| Allowances 04/04/2010 at 16:05 #8173 | |
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UKTrainMan
1803 posts |
This was mentioned during one multiplayer session however I've totally forgotten what was said now. Therefore, I too would like to know an answer. Then again, I would hazard a guess that the allowances are something like a "leeway" for delays or something. If the train is to travel through a section of engineering work then it would be given an allowance of xx minutes or if the train was to take an alternative path between two stations then it may be given an allowance of xx minutes to cover the extra time added to the journey due to the alternative path being used. An example of the latter could be if you had the whole section on KingsX closed between Alexandra Palace and Stevenage (via WelwynGC) and you wanted to divert the main line express services via the Hertford North loop then I could easily imagine anything upto perhaps 30 minutes being added to one of the two Allowances. Hope this helps. Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for. Log in to reply |
| Allowances 04/04/2010 at 16:54 #8174 | |
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AndyG
1834 posts |
From the Help file(Timetable trip editor): "Engineering/Pathing allowances - time allowed before that location for engineering work or pathing requirements (another train timetabled to be in the way of this train, so time is allowed for that train to get out of the way) (optional)." ie some slack time allowed in the train's TT. {transfer of this and other parts of Help file onto WIKI still in hand} I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Log in to reply |
| Allowances 04/04/2010 at 18:21 #8176 | |
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pilotman
189 posts |
Thanks guys. If you use these allowances would you still be penalised as "minutes lost by you"??
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| Allowances 04/04/2010 at 18:45 #8177 | |
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Sacro
1171 posts |
Not unless the train is late, the arrival/departure times take into account these allowances.
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| Allowances 04/04/2010 at 19:10 #8178 | |
GeoffM
6282 posts |
The simulation doesn't use these values per se, they are there more to indicate why there is more time allowed for the reasons already given by Andy. Sacro's comment is also correct, so if a train is running late but has some "slack" in the timetable then it could well make up some of the time lost previously.
SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Allowances 04/04/2010 at 19:27 #8179 | |
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bill_gensheet
1316 posts |
I think there is some interaction in timetable writing, as any automatically inserted timing points immediately after the allowance will account for the recovery time instead of averaging out the journey times (or as I found, put the allowance in the wrong place and it can re-order the timetable for you) Bill Log in to reply |
| Allowances 04/04/2010 at 20:04 #8180 | |
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pilotman
189 posts |
OK, so if I understand correctly a train with a 5 minute allowance would not be penalised if running 5 mins late after the allowance, but recovery of the 5 mins. would be credited. Ray Log in to reply |
| Allowances 04/04/2010 at 22:43 #8185 | |
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GeoffM
6282 posts |
pilotman said:OK, so if I understand correctly a train with a 5 minute allowance would not be penalised if running 5 mins late after the allowance, but recovery of the 5 mins. would be credited.Not sure I follow but if a train was 5 minutes late at its previous timed location and arrived on time at the next timed location then you would indeed be credited 5 minutes - regardless of how that was recovered, be it unused allowance, running on a fast line when timetabled slow, etc. You could leave allowances out of the timetable and it would not affect the simulation in any way. It's purely informational for the signaller/timetabler. Incidentally the Network Rail website uses these allowances to predict if a late running time will recover time later on in its journey - somewhat optimistically in my opinion. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Allowances 05/04/2010 at 13:13 #8198 | |
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pilotman
189 posts |
Thanks Geoff - I think I have it now (old braincells!!). This explains why a train can be running say 2 or 3 late in SimSig then suddenly be 5 early at the next timing point. As far as a "real" railway is concerned if a train loses its pathing due to lateness the operational patterns seem to make it very difficult to recover. Ray Log in to reply |
| Allowances 06/04/2010 at 20:17 #8234 | |
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daverail01
32 posts |
Engineering allowances (written like this [2]) are set out in the Rules of the Plan and are put in to allow for TSRs etc. They are a fixed allowance and agreed with the operators. Pathing time (written like this (2) ) are put in by the timers to allow extra running time between two point to avoid a clash such as approaching a junction where the two trains would arrive at the same time, or to maintain headways where a faster train is following a slower moving service. There is also an "adjustment" allowance ("fiddle time"-which appears like this {2}) which is put in to extend a point-to-point timing to allow for a train accellerating from or braking on the approach to a junction etc.
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| Re: Allowances 17/11/2011 at 01:43 #23107 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Like you other guys I wondered what Eng and Path allowances meant. Likewise the Pos column next to it in the Show Timetable window. It seems to be empty most of the time. Can anyone explain its function to me? I have to say I don't find Eng, Path or Pos very relevant to daily Sim playing. However, the Activities column is vital. I would greatly appreciate it if the Activities column could be placed next to the Line column and the width of the Show Timetable window adjusted so that at its narrowest, Eng/Path/Pos need not be displayed. This would help those with tight screens. Log in to reply |
| Re: Allowances 17/11/2011 at 10:03 #23122 | |
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y10g9
895 posts |
The POS coloum is Positon. Anything written in this coloum basically changes where the train stops at a location. There is Far end (F), Far end exact (FX), Near End (N) and Near end exact (NX). The only time there often used is if you have a long train that could overhang the platform or you have a train running around at a location where when he pulls in, he needs to be able to make sure there is enough room for the engine to squeeze between the end of the train and the signal that will set his route. i know for a definate that they are used on the sleeper trains on the edin sim Log in to reply |
| Re: Allowances 17/11/2011 at 11:48 #23132 | |
Peter Bennet
5360 posts |
They are of more interest to the writer of a timetable than the user. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Re: Allowances 17/11/2011 at 11:51 #23133 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Thanks y10g9 and Peter. I had no idea there was so much involved. However, unless some advanced sim refers to these values, I can't see myself needing to pay attention to the values in this column.
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| Re: Allowances 17/11/2011 at 12:38 #23137 | |
postal
5190 posts |
Maxand The Eng and Path columns are helpful where you are trying to regulate trains. For example on the SwinDid sim there are long stretches of double track with loops every so often where you can recess a freight to let a faster moving passenger past. If you have a train running out of course you need to work out where you will recess it (if a slower train) or where you will need to recess a slower train in front of it if it is a passenger trying to make up time. You can look at the TT to work out the running time from point to point to help make the decision. Suppose for example that you have a slower moving train running a few minutes in front of a faster one as it approaches one of the loops. You need to decide whether to recess here or the next loop. You then have to do 2 things; check the faster train's TT to see what time it will be at the next loop (obviously adjusting the TT time to take account of how early or late the train is). Then you need to look at the slower train's TT to work out what time that could be at the next loop. Particularly with freight TTs time is often built in to allow for conflict with other trains in the TT; this is a pathing allowance. All TTs also have an allowance for delay and slower speed running caused by engineering and maintenance works. This is the engineering allowance, and if I recall correctly is actually specified in the Rules of the Route and must be included in the TT before it is acceptable to Network Rail. So, going back to the main point, suppose your slower train has passing times of 09/15 at the first loop and 09/35 at the second; if the faster train's predicted path would put it at the second loop at or before 09/35, first assumption is that you have to recess the slower train at the first loop. However, the 20 minutes running time in the slower train's TT may include pathing or engineering allowances. Assuming that you have not been warned of any speed restrictions on the relevant stretch, the actual running time will be the time gap in the TT less the allowances. So if you had 7 minutes Path and 2 minutes Eng the actual running time would only be 11 minutes (20 less 7 and 2). Give a couple of minutes for the slower train to get into the loop and draw the tail clear and you could probably let the slower train go forward even if the faster train was predicted to pass the second loop at 09/28. A bit long and complicated, but I hope it makes sense. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 17/11/2011 at 12:39 by postal Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Allowances 17/11/2011 at 18:13 #23157 | |
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clive
2738 posts |
" said:Thanks y10g9 and Peter. I had no idea there was so much involved. However, unless some advanced sim refers to these values, I can't see myself needing to pay attention to the values in this column.The allowances are purely a timetabling thing. I don't think anything in the sim (possibly except for ARS) looks at them. Position (which came in later, so it isn't in some old sims) is used. Basically, the core code does its best to work out where a train should stop at a station or other timing point, but in some complex cases (particularly involving joins from both ends) it can't cope. So the position field can be used to specify where the train stops in more detail (either giving an exact position or saying how much space to leave at one end or the other of the train). It's not a case of advanced sim so much as advanced timetable (have you tried any Kurt specials yet?). Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Allowances 17/11/2011 at 21:40 #23168 | |
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GeoffM
6282 posts |
" said:I have to say I don't find Eng, Path or Pos very relevant to daily Sim playing.Very wrong. But I very much concede that it's not obvious simply how important it is, judging by the other comments here. Postal couldn't have explained it better. " said: However, the Activities column is vital. I would greatly appreciate it if the Activities column could be placed next to the Line column and the width of the Show Timetable window adjusted so that at its narrowest, Eng/Path/Pos need not be displayed. This would help those with tight screens.Obviously this comment relates to the previous, so it's a little unfair to judge it alone. Suffice to say, both are of equal importance, and nobody has complained in the last 11 years so unless there is a sudden deluge of comments, it will probably stay in the same order. SimSig Boss Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Allowances 18/11/2011 at 01:17 #23181 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Thanks Clive and Geoff for your comments and particularly postal for that excellent explanation of Position. I can see how it works now, maybe will be able to use these figures to help manage a sim better.
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| Re: Allowances 18/11/2011 at 10:06 #23207 | |
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postal
5190 posts |
For the record, I hope I was explaining about Allowances as that is the subject of this thread, rather than Position!
“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |