When did the Underground change ??

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When did the Underground change ?? 16/04/2010 at 21:45 #8579
UKTrainMan
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1803 posts 		clive said:
The problem with the Circle Line is that there's nowhere to short-turn a train if there's any kind of delay. That led to all kinds of operational problems.
Is there something stopping them turning around at Moorgate (one of the two terminus platforms) or Tower Hill (only one turn-around platform) or High Street Kensington (or one of those station in that area) or a number of other stations? Obviously there are limitations i.e: getting train drivers there but surely it's still do-able even if it involves using taxis (something I know a certain train company do with their train drivers from the terminus station in London to the nearby depot).
Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for.
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When did the Underground change ?? 16/04/2010 at 22:50 #8586
GeoffM
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6282 posts
Online 		UKTrainMan said:
Is there something stopping them turning around at Moorgate (one of the two terminus platforms) or Tower Hill (only one turn-around platform or High Street Kensington (or one of those station in that area) or a number of other stations?
But then you'd also need to turn one of the other direction trains as well, otherwise you'd have an imbalance of services on the inner and outer circles. The chances of a pair of inner and outer circle trains being stuffed up at the right time and place to make a swap possible is slim to say the least.

Nowadays, foe example, if a clockwise circle was running late into High Street Ken, it could turn around there and be slotted into its back working at the right time without affecting other trains or crew.
SimSig Boss
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When did the Underground change ?? 17/04/2010 at 06:58 #8589
Peter Bennet
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Online 		I have been on sub-surface train recently that's terminated at a bay at Moorgate but that was a Metropolitain one- but in that answers the question about being possible. I also think District line trains are booked to turn at Tower Hill in the peak, certainly seen that as the destination on the board at Westminster.

I have also seen Circle line trains chainging their destination to become a H&C train, presumably to sort out the spacing.

Peter
I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
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When did the Underground change ?? 17/04/2010 at 08:15 #8590
JamesN
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Online 		Essentially the Circle Line prior to the reformation was saturated to the maximum capacity of the signalling (if you include the Mets, H&Cs and Districts), and thus they needed to rejig the service so there was still a 'circle' (albeit with in-station interchange) but it had the ability to reverse at each end of a journey with the minimum of overlap. The only place where this was possible, with adequate space for reversing was Edgware Road.

To Clear Up a few points:

Peter:
Tower Hill Reversing on the District is a regular thing, peak and off peak. Ealing Broadway Services Tend to reverse there.
Moorgate isn't a 'regular' reversing point for the Met, but late running peak services are often turned there, as well as late night trains and occasionally during engineering works aswell.

UKTM:
The problem with running Hammersmith > KX > Aldgate > Victoria > Edgware Road > KX > Moorgate is that you double the number of trains across Baker Street Jn, which is already at capacity. This couldn't be solved without major infrastructure works.

spfish:
The stock workings are written to provide a balance (even today, on the new circle WTT) of Inner Rail and Outer Rail Workings, and evening out wheel wear.
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When did the Underground change ?? 17/04/2010 at 08:46 #8592
Late Turn
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696 posts 		James - irrespective of whether it's an Inner Rail service or an Outer Rail service, wheel wear will still be worse on the same side. The only way to even that wear out - as Clive says - is to turn the train, for example by running it via a reversal at Whitechapel.
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When did the Underground change ?? 17/04/2010 at 08:59 #8593
metcontrol
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217 posts 		As someone who is in direct daily control of the new timetable, I have to say that from a reliability point of view, this has increased tenfold. Figures (yes, I know they are just figures) released a couple of months into the timetable showed we were running the most reliable service on the core Circle Route that had ever been run. The service on the whole is easier to manage. Recovery of late-running is now much easier, and won't cause huge gaps to the whole Circle Line while we do it. During a typical pre-December shift, it wasn't uncommon for us to "step-up" the Circles 2 or 3 times to get them back to right-time - normally only to have them come round late again the following trip. Now this rarely happens.

It is one of those can't please all the people all the time situations. Lots of people now have to change trains at Edgware Road. But this is probably the one and only complaint that has come from the timetable. Hammersmith branch customers now have a great service - every 5 minutes all day. The service on the remainder of the line is much more reliable.

Before December there were 7 trains on each side of the Circle, timetabled to run 8 minutes apart with between 56 and 60 minutes to do the full trip. During mild to moderate disruption, peak hour frequencies would range from 10 minutes to a more likely 20-minute gap followed by 3 together, followed by another huge gap. Now we have a regular and much more reliable 10 minute frequency, with trains on the whole turning up every 10-minutes. The service is easier to manage from a service control point of view, and so any foreseen gaps to the service can be spotted and covered much easier than before.

As for wheel wear. Bit of an old-wives tale this one. Someone will no doubt reveal an "official" document on the subject. We used to have "turning" trips for the C-stock, but these were normally utilised to turn back trains that had been turned through service disruption. The nature of the Circle service always meant that trains were turned naturally and during a typical day, trains would end up operating on both Circle and H&C services. There is no guidance in my office concerning balanced wheel wear or anything related to that.
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When did the Underground change ?? 17/04/2010 at 09:53 #8594
GeoffM
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Online 		Thanks, MetControl, most interesting.
SimSig Boss
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When did the Underground change ?? 18/04/2010 at 13:41 #8613
jimgos2005
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129 posts 		Very Interesting reading thanks Met Control just gonna throw my pennies worth in it always has been difficult to regulate the Circle Line because they are never on a piece of track on their own if the district main is disrupted the circles are reversed at Moorgate bay roads I think this adds up to more trains between the city are and Edgeware road when I used to book circles I never looked at the back of them always get the wrong train number I used book them at Aldgate but check the fron at Farring(before farringdon moved to Baker Street SCC) I found this easier.

Hope this helps.
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When did the Underground change ?? 18/04/2010 at 19:46 #8619
mfcooper
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707 posts 		In relation to "not knowing" about the change...

In the run up to the change (Dec 13th 2009 springs to mind), you couldn't move through the Underground without seeing a poster somewhere about it, and even if you hadn't, a simple look at the current Tube map does show a definate split at Edgware Road; the circle is no longer complete! As for those arriving at Paddington Station on the main line from the West, the Circle Line is clearly signposted for services via Victoria (from the main Underground station) and those via Kings Cross (from the H&C Platforms [15 & 16 I think]) in the correct, opposing, directions.

Just keep your eyes open ;-)
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When did the Underground change ?? 19/04/2010 at 07:35 #8625
moonraker
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353 posts 		Well me & my boy didn't see it. Oh well. I really do think that they need some sort of blanket announcement to the wider world as it's not just those in London that use the Underground.
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When did the Underground change ?? 19/04/2010 at 08:21 #8627
Peter Bennet
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5360 posts
Online 		The new Victoria line train appeared again this morning- more or less the same time as last Monday. Whether it was out all week or just a Monday thing I don't know.

Peter
I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
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When did the Underground change ?? 19/04/2010 at 09:06 #8629
postal
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Online 		I presume that there must have been some sort of press campaign orchestrated by TfL as a quick Google brings up early December stories in the Independent and the Daily Telegraph about the changes. If other papers choose not to run the story, that is their editorial policy and not really the fault of TfL (although that then opens that argument that perhaps TfL did not try hard enough)!
“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
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When did the Underground change ?? 19/04/2010 at 12:36 #8631
GeoffM
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6282 posts
Online 		I only pass through London once every couple of months or so, so I probably missed the poster campaign. I did hear through the grapevine that it was changing, but it still caught me unawares. When you've been doing the same thing for years you don't tend to notice signs - if they are that obvious - at Paddington telling you to turn around and go back the way you came (have those coloured lines on the floor at Paddington been repainted appropriately, leading you in the right direction?).

So in all fairness there probably was enough warning for those that regularly transit London, and the cross-platform transfer at Edgware Road should have made it fairly painless anyway. Unfortunately not in my case but that was a sample basis of one.
SimSig Boss
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When did the Underground change ?? 19/04/2010 at 17:44 #8640
UKTrainMan
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1803 posts 		Peter Bennet said:
The new Victoria line train appeared again this morning- more or less the same time as last Monday.  Whether it was out all week or just a Monday thing I don't know.
From a source at LUL;

Quote:
The new Victoria Line stock is generally run outside of the peak hours (i.e: after 9:30am - before 4pm) and maybe beyond that (i.e: 7pm towards the end of service). They don't run on weekends
Can't promise that is 100% accurate so please don't quote me on it however I'd like to think that it is reasonably accurate.

GeoffM said:
have those coloured lines on the floor at Paddington been repainted appropriately, leading you in the right direction?
Yes I do believe they have fully been done as when I was using the footbridge the other day I did indeed notice both yellow and pink lines along the floor.
Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for.
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When did the Underground change ?? 19/04/2010 at 19:43 #8648
Underwood
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746 posts 		The new victoria line stock on weekends is a 'depends' I think, I can confirm 100% I have had one in March 2010 in passenger service on a Saturday
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When did the Underground change ?? 20/04/2010 at 18:09 #8682
metcontrol
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217 posts 		postal said:
I presume that there must have been some sort of press campaign orchestrated by TfL as a quick Google brings up early December stories in the Independent and the Daily Telegraph about the changes. If other papers choose not to run the story, that is their editorial policy and not really the fault of TfL (although that then opens that argument that perhaps TfL did not try hard enough)!
There was quite a bit of media attention - in particular of course in the LU's favourite friend (I use the term very loosely) the Evening Standard. Unfortunately, most of the stories I saw were pretty critical of the changes, and very often the actual message LU was trying to get across concerning the changes was lost in amongst the complaining. It surprised me just how many "customers" some papers found prior to the start of the change, who were already "fed up with the new service" - which of course hadn't even started.

One reporter of said "friend" was invited to our control room to view for himself how we control things and how the new timetable would improve reliability. Alas, he was more concerned with text messages arriving on his mobile phone to bother listening to my manager explain all the details. Perhaps this could be one area where the details were unfortunately "over-looked."

I think in terms of getting used to the change, the majority of regular "punters" quickly got used to the idea, and most probably formed new travel methods quite early on. Unfortunately those who travel rarely to London may still be caught out, but then this could be said of any alteration to anything that is not visited / used regularly.
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