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| E button on Auto's 20/06/2010 at 15:34 #1379 | |
caedave
142 posts |
Although relating to a Sim under test, this is a real NR question. What are the regs for the use of the emergency stop button on auto sigs, can it be used to regulate approaching trains. Reason for question. Controlling the approach to a trailing junction in an ARS area. Heavy traffic on both Up and Down main lines and require to turn a Down train onto the branch (facing). With the close heading in the Up direction the ARS resets the Up Main route as soon as the proceeding train has cleared the Jcn, thus preventing the Down train route to the branch setting. If I use the "Cancel Route" there is a two minute delay before the new route can be set, plus the shut down of the area ARS. This results in delays of 3 to 5 mins on some services. If I use the E button on the auto on the approach to the junction controlled signal, as soon as the proceeding train has passed it, then the ARS does not reset the Up main route, and the Down train crossing route can be set as soon as the junction is clear. I then clear the Auto E button as soon as the crossing route has set. Net result, normally no delay. BUT CAN I DO THIS. Is this right under current regulations. Dave M. Log in to reply |
| E button on Auto's 20/06/2010 at 15:34 #9732 | |
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caedave
142 posts |
Although relating to a Sim under test, this is a real NR question. What are the regs for the use of the emergency stop button on auto sigs, can it be used to regulate approaching trains. Reason for question. Controlling the approach to a trailing junction in an ARS area. Heavy traffic on both Up and Down main lines and require to turn a Down train onto the branch (facing). With the close heading in the Up direction the ARS resets the Up Main route as soon as the proceeding train has cleared the Jcn, thus preventing the Down train route to the branch setting. If I use the "Cancel Route" there is a two minute delay before the new route can be set, plus the shut down of the area ARS. This results in delays of 3 to 5 mins on some services. If I use the E button on the auto on the approach to the junction controlled signal, as soon as the proceeding train has passed it, then the ARS does not reset the Up main route, and the Down train crossing route can be set as soon as the junction is clear. I then clear the Auto E button as soon as the crossing route has set. Net result, normally no delay. BUT CAN I DO THIS. Is this right under current regulations. Dave M. Log in to reply |
| E button on Auto's 20/06/2010 at 19:27 #9736 | |
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mfcooper
707 posts |
The button in question is called an "Emergency Replacement Switch" (ERS). I am under the impression that this implies it is only for use in an emergency... When using ARS, the use of Reminders to stop the ARS setting unwanted routes is commonly used. Depending on the situation depends if the reminders are applied to the Entry or the Exit signal. I would use reminders in this circumstance, and not the ERS. Log in to reply |
| E button on Auto's 20/06/2010 at 20:39 #9738 | |
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daza7789
59 posts |
As Matt says emergency replacement switches are what they say on the tin, and as for regulation in ARS areas a reminder should be used (however with real life systems such as liverpool st one would hope that the ARS code is set to sort this issue out by its self...(yer..right!)). the only circumstances that some ERS's can be used for other than emergencies (if box instructions allow it as not all ERS's are to be relied upon) is to protect engeineering work (T1A/T2/T3 and even T12 in 1 circumstance i know) temporary block working, and sometimes to protect automatic crossings when on local control. saying that im sure Matt can think of some more. Daz Log in to reply |
| E button on Auto's 20/06/2010 at 22:58 #9741 | |
postal
5190 posts |
Following the comments from Matt and Darren about use of the ERS, can I pick the collective brains of those who look after us in the real world about the procedure for protecting a user-operated level crossing while a movement of a slow-moving vehicle or livestock has been authorised by the signal operator? I assume there is a need to put a reminder on the first operator-controlled signal on each line in advance of the crossing. Is it permissible in those circumstances to use the ERS to put a signal to red and then collar it, or should the signaller track back along the line to the first "operator-controlled" signal, put that to red and then place a reminder? And given Darren's comments in regard to ARS-controlled areas, are things different where there is no ARS? Apologies if it is all getting a bit arcane. However, it would be nice to know how to run a sim as a reflection of real life. JG “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| E button on Auto's 21/06/2010 at 00:13 #9743 | |
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mfcooper
707 posts |
I think that circumstance would depend on the signal box. At Stratford NLL, in our Signal Box Special Instructions, we have the following paragraph... Quote: If we had crossings, then I would guess that would be stated as well. HOWEVER - there are other locations where ERS's can be replied upon. It all depends... :-S Log in to reply |
| E button on Auto's 21/06/2010 at 01:39 #9744 | |
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Sacro
1171 posts |
postal said:I assume there is a need to put a reminder on the first operator-controlled signal on each line in advance of the crossing.The reminder would surely be put on the first signal in rear of the crossing? Log in to reply |
| E button on Auto's 21/06/2010 at 09:30 #9748 | |
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postal
5190 posts |
Ben Probably getting at cross purposes with the words - I meant the last controlled signal before the train reached the LC. JG “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| E button on Auto's 21/06/2010 at 11:49 #9751 | |
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Hpotter
205 posts |
USE OF EMERGENCY REPLACEMENT SWITCHES: With the exception of the emergency replacemnet switches listed below, you MUST NOT rely on any emergency replacment switches controlled form this box to give signal protection, or to keep a signal at danger, for any of the following reasons: * Protection of the line (Modules T2 and T3) * Work on signalling equipment (Module T1A) * Temporary Block Working (Module T1B Section 20) (List of signals for the box in question) You must specially observe the indication of the above named signals on each occasion that the emergency replacement switch is operated before a train is allowed to approach. An automatic signal placed to Danger using a signal post replacement facility may be relied upon. NOTE:- Not withstanding the above instrution, if an emergency arises, any automatic signal with a replacement facility in this box may be used initially in an attempt to stop trains. Also, just noticed, that in the SBSI, ther is a provision for protection to be used in conjunction with several level crossings: If it is necessary to provide immediate signal protection in an emergency, the emergency replacement facility on signals X,Y,Z my be used. Log in to reply |
| E button on Auto's 21/06/2010 at 14:35 #9752 | |
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mfcooper
707 posts |
Howard - where did you get that text? My box instructions only has that first paragraph (the one I quoted).
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| E button on Auto's 21/06/2010 at 17:20 #9755 | |
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NorthSig
27 posts |
ERS can be used to protect a crossing, yes. You don't need to go back as far as the next applicable controlled signal, unless box instructions dictate otherwise. ERS isn't used for regulation purposes, whether in ARS areas or not. I think caedave should be using reminders or turning ARS off at the junction to get things sorted as has already been suggested. Matt - it seems that most TCB box instructions contain a section on ERS (if fitted) and the content is similar, so Potter is probably quoting part of one he has, which may not be the one for Stratford NLL. It was similar in the boxes I work anyway. Log in to reply |
| E button on Auto's 25/06/2010 at 21:51 #9819 | |
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caedave
142 posts |
Thank you all for this information. REMINDERS now being used, and can be better in that it allows a close following train to be closer to the crossing before it needs to check so the actual throughput is quicker. Dave M. Log in to reply |
| E button on Auto's 29/06/2010 at 13:48 #9838 | |
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Firefly
521 posts |
You can also peg points to prevent ARS setting a route. (less button clicks  )
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| E button on Auto's 18/03/2011 at 17:18 #14087 | |
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MrBitsy
121 posts |
I work at West Hampstead PSB and we have two types of ERS on the panel. Those labelled 'E' are not to be relied upon. However, we have several labelled 'R' which can be relied upon.
TVSC Link 4 signaller - Temple Meads, Bath & Stoke Gifford Log in to reply |
| E button on Auto's 19/03/2011 at 12:31 #14092 | |
Simdmuk
153 posts |
Hi Guys From your replies above, it seems that (except for emergencies) you cannot rely on ERS except in certain cases. I'm a little confused about possession work. One reply says this is an exception but others say not. A couple of examples spring to mind and I wonder if these are some of the permitted cases: I have often travelled from St Pancras to Nottingahm on Saturday evenings and passed possession works which you can see many automatic signals are at red way before the actual possession site.This seems to suggest that they have had ERS attivated or alternativley manually attivated at the actual signal posts (it would be a long slog for someone to have to do this surely ?). The other is when walking along the sea wall at Dawlish/Teignmouth on either Christmas Day or Boxing day (that is to say no trains are running), all the controlled signals are at danger and the automatic ones too. So i assume the ERS's are used for this. Log in to reply |
| E button on Auto's 19/03/2011 at 21:31 #14099 | |
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TomOF
452 posts |
In recent years many ERS buttons on panels have been augmented to provide assurance that using the 'E' button will place a signal to danger. On panels now you may see a label stating that the button can be relied upon.
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| E button on Auto's 25/04/2011 at 18:55 #15348 | |
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GB
64 posts |
In Sim Sig at least, you can still inadvertently clear a signal that has been placed to danger using the ERS even with a reminder applied, so I'd be wary of using such signals for protection. Within possessions, there is no requirement to have every available ERS fitted signal placed to red.
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| E button on Auto's 25/04/2011 at 19:16 #15349 | |
GeoffM
6282 posts |
GB said:In Sim Sig at least, you can still inadvertently clear a signal that has been placed to danger using the ERS even with a reminder applied, so I'd be wary of using such signals for protection.Are you sure you had the reminder on the ERS button rather than the signal itself? Putting it on the signal would not, of course, affect the ERS operation, and only affect routing to that signal. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| E button on Auto's 25/04/2011 at 21:44 #15352 | |
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mfcooper
707 posts |
So Geoff's comment above becomes: "Did you know you can place a reminder on an ERS button? This is what you should be doing in that circumstance." Log in to reply |
| E button on Auto's 26/04/2011 at 18:19 #15377 | |
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GB
64 posts |
Well well well, you learn something new everyday. After all these years playing SimSig I didn't know you could collar the ERS button! Cheers chaps
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| E button on Auto's 01/05/2011 at 22:52 #15441 | |
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UKTrainMan
1803 posts |
GB said:Well well well, you learn something new everyday. After all these years playing SimSig I didn't know you could collar the ERS button!Heh, there are many things in SimSig that others don't know you can collar. Examples are; ARS Control buttons (those buttons used to turn ARS on or off for a certain area). The 'crossing identification' text at crossings (the letters that tell you which type of crossing it is, i.e: MWL, UWC, ABCL, etc). 'Indication' lights at automatic crossings. Points (once keyed - the blue marking). Auto buttons (although to be honest this should be sort of obvious if ERS buttons can be collared). and I'm sure there are some others I've missed. Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for. Log in to reply |
| E button on Auto's 06/05/2011 at 18:49 #15608 | |
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Josie
310 posts |
UKTrainMan said:The 'crossing identification' text at crossings (the letters that tell you which type of crossing it is, i.e: MWL, UWC, ABCL, etc). What do these achieve? UKTrainMan said: Auto buttons (although to be honest this should be sort of obvious if ERS buttons can be collared). A good practical example being on KX, on the Up Fast north of Hitchin. Log in to reply |
| E button on Auto's 06/05/2011 at 20:30 #15612 | |
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Jan
889 posts |
Josie said:UKTrainMan said:The 'crossing identification' text at crossings (the letters that tell you which type of crossing it is, i.e: MWL, UWC, ABCL, etc).What do these achieve? It's useful as a reminder in case you've got a slow vehicle crossing, etc. But of course it doesn't lock anything directly, so you should collar the protecting signals, too. Another item to add to the list are the crossing controls for CCTV/MCB crossings, these can be collared, too. Two million people attempt to use Birmingham's magnificent rail network every year, with just over a million of them managing to get further than Smethwick. Log in to reply |