age of tthe layout

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age of tthe layout 24/08/2010 at 17:42 #1670
jc92
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Online 		hi all. obviously liv st is a fairly recent box (in real life) and id assume the layout has massively altered from the 70s due to a lack of loco hauled services.

id like to have a crack at a 70s/80s fictional TT for liv st but wondered if it was suitable for loco hauled services as i recall it having RR loops at one point
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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age of tthe layout 24/08/2010 at 17:42 #10970
jc92
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3631 posts
Online 		hi all. obviously liv st is a fairly recent box (in real life) and id assume the layout has massively altered from the 70s due to a lack of loco hauled services.

id like to have a crack at a 70s/80s fictional TT for liv st but wondered if it was suitable for loco hauled services as i recall it having RR loops at one point
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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age of tthe layout 24/08/2010 at 18:07 #10972
Lardybiker
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771 posts 		If I remember correctly, Liverpool St is now an IECC system meaning we are unable to simulate the current layout so the layout in the sim is certainly not the latest. Your best bet would be to find the necessary TT information and see if all the locations you need are available. If they are, then you are good to go. If not, then I think your only option is to use some "artistic license" in order to make it work.

It's easier if its fictional as then you don;t have to be overly concerned with whether a particular move was ever done in real life or not.
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age of tthe layout 24/08/2010 at 18:09 #10973
UKTrainMan
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1803 posts 		Firstly, loco hauled services technically still do use London Liverpool Street as the NXEA express services are Class 90 hauled Mk3 carriages with an Mk3 DVT (or is it Mk4?) - the Class 90 being almost always at the London end.

Looking at Liverpool Street as it is now, I cannot see any possible way that it could be run in a 70s/80s mode unless you did something like with KingsX 1980s/1985s TTs having plenty of loco swaps/moves but that'd mean having to use F2 Train List a lot to reverse the locos outside the station but then they wouldn't be performing a signalled move unless you keyed and maybe locked points then you could run it to a suitable signal to signal it into the platform. In-fact thinking about it you may be able to run the loco further out of the station to reverse it around Bethnal Green then run it back into the station from there, but timetables would have to be worked out carefully in-case of clashes.

Of course an alternative would be to see if a 'Nostalgia' version of Liverpool Street could be created but that would rely on the Conflict of Interests not causing, errr, a conflict of interests - something which I'm not sure about.
Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for.
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age of tthe layout 24/08/2010 at 18:11 #10974
ipswich
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247 posts 		UKTrainMan said:
with an Mk3 DVT (or is it Mk4?)

it is mk3
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age of tthe layout 24/08/2010 at 18:16 #10975
jc92
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Online 		Lardybiker said:
If I remember correctly, Liverpool St is now an IECC system meaning we are unable to simulate the current layout so the layout in the sim is certainly not the latest.
i thought the SimSig sim was the iecc screen for liverpool street and its approach?

UKTrainMan said:
I cannot see any possible way that it could be run in a 70s/80s mode unless you did something like with KingsX 1980s/1985s TTs having plenty of loco swaps/moves
i was thinking of removing light locos off sim for servicing? (artistic lisence) hence a train arrives. loco detaches. new loco comes on from off sim. take train away. leftover loco then departs to shed? am i biting off more than i can chew? noone said it had to be busy if it is fictional? just something different and interesting?
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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age of tthe layout 24/08/2010 at 18:43 #10978
Lardybiker
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771 posts 		Liverpool Street was one of the very early sims to be produced. I am not entirely sure on what layout it was based but certainly the real layout is now controlled by IECC. Geoff works for the company who create/maintain the commercial version of SimSig, called TreSim, and that means there are some limitations on what can and cannot be done at certain locations. Liverpool St falls into this category.

jc92 said:
i was thinking of removing light locos off sim for servicing? (artistic lisence) hence a train arrives. loco detaches. new loco comes on from off sim. take train away. leftover loco then departs to shed? am i biting off more than i can chew? no-one said it had to be busy if it is fictional? just something different and interesting?
It's certainly do-able. A lot depends in its complexity and how much time you have to devote to it. Be warned it can suck in many hours!!!
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age of tthe layout 24/08/2010 at 18:44 #10979
UKTrainMan
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1803 posts 		Quote:
UKTrainMan said:
I cannot see any possible way that it could be run in a 70s/80s mode unless you did something like with KingsX 1980s/1985s TTs having plenty of loco swaps/moves
i was thinking of removing light locos off sim for servicing? (artistic lisence) hence a train arrives. loco detaches. new loco comes on from off sim. take train away. leftover loco then departs to shed? am i biting off more than i can chew? noone said it had to be busy if it is fictional? just something different and interesting?
That sounds very workable and doesn't mean unsignalled moves so is safe, etc. Taking that idea further, perhaps the loco could be specifically numbered under the description and leave the area then shortly afterwards re-enter the simulation again to simulate being turned around or the driver changing ends somewhere.

That said, how were those trains run back in the 1970s/1980s? Were they not loco hauled trains with a DBSO at country-end acting like a DVT, therefore they never did require loco swaps, except perhaps at Norwich.

And Liverpool Street is busy enough as it is right now so I'm sure that a slightly less busier TT would be appreciated.

ipswich said:
UKTrainMan said:
with an Mk3 DVT (or is it Mk4?)

it is mk3
Thanks!
Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for.
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age of tthe layout 24/08/2010 at 18:48 #10980
jc92
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Online 		i think ive seen 31 hauled trains in the 70's however the headshunts were still present. the system ive suggested is similar to 1980s waterloo if you replace off sim with clapham yard??

most services will be DMUS but the liv st norwich and cambridge trains were loco hauled?
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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age of tthe layout 24/08/2010 at 20:06 #10986
Adrian the Rock
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111 posts 		Cambridge/Kings Lynn fasts were certainly loco-hauled in those days.
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age of tthe layout 25/08/2010 at 08:12 #10996
GeoffM
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6287 posts 		The SimSig layout is the current layout, apart from a few minor changes over the years (Bethnal Green North Jn crossovers are now fixed diamonds rather than swing nose diamonds; a couple of minor signalling restrictions elsewhere). Back in the late 80s there used to be a small set of engine sidings between platforms 12 and 13 (?), hence the subs on the signals there that don't appear to do anything.

SimSig Liverpool Street pre-dated TRESIM Liverpool Street so it's one of the few not affected by the conflict of interest issue.
SimSig Boss
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The following user said thank you: CTCThiago
age of tthe layout 01/05/2013 at 20:22 #44232
CTCThiago
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232 posts 		Excellent Sim by the way...
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The following user said thank you: GeoffM
age of tthe layout 02/05/2013 at 11:05 #44240
58050
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2650 posts 		As Geoff states the layout at Liverpool Street is the current one. However its not that different from when I started work in the Regional Control Office at Liverpool Street in September, 1990. There maybe a few sidings missing in the current layout where a couple of locos stabled. When I started work there on the traction control all of the Inter-City services from Liverpool Street to Norwich/Harwich Parkeston Quay where in the hands of Cl.86/2 with Mk.2d/e/f stock & an ex Scotrail DVT at the London end of the formation. However in 1988 there were 3 loco holding sdgs at Liverpool Street, 2 of them between platforms 10 & 11 leading to a head shunt or another loco holding sdg. In 1988 Cl.86/2 also worked loco hauled services to Cambridge where they would be swapped over for Cl.47/4s for the remainder of the journey to King's Lynn. The other thing to note if you are doing a timetable for Liverpool Street is that Cl.37s with roof mounted horns were banned from travelling on the Up & Down Subs as the horns would be foul of the overhead line equiptment. Usually if a DVT or Cl.86/2 failed at Liverpool Street a Cl.47/4 off Stratford TMD was sent LD to Liverpool Street to work the train to Norwich or Harwich, but if none were available then a Cl.37/0 was used as I have done this myself many times between 1990 - 1994. London Liverpool Street had & maybe still has the busiest rush hour than any other London Terminus. There was a myriad of EMUs that workjed into & out of Liverpool Street such as Cl.302(Oxo-Cubes), Cl.305, Cl.306, Cl.307, Cl.308, Cl.309, Cl.310(off the LT&S), Cl.312, Cl.315, Cl.317(West Anglia services). Some Cl.302 units were converted to EPUs & there were at least 2 diagrams in 1990 one from Chlemsford & one from Norwich to Liverpool Street that werte worked by these as well as a couple of Cl.47/4 hauled postal services. The loco hauled stock was stabled at Thornton Fields carriage sdgs which situated between Stratford & Bow. EMUs were also stabled at Thornton Fields as well as Ilford Carr Sheds, Bishops Stortford, Chingford, East Ham EMUD. Also ECS movements between Cambridge, Clacton & Colchester also occurred on occasions. It really depends what year timetable you are looking at doing Joe, but I suspect with the layout as it is anything older than 1990 is going to require alot more light engine movements between Liverpool Street & Stratford or Thornton Fields CS.
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age of tthe layout 02/05/2013 at 17:36 #44254
Underwood
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746 posts 		UKTrainMan said:

That said, how were those trains run back in the 1970s/1980s? Were they not loco hauled trains with a DBSO at country-end acting like a DVT, therefore they never did require loco swaps, except perhaps at Norwich.
Something I'm trying to figure out myself! I was under the impression that pre-electrification days, the Norwich 47's were push-pull. But I can't find any info that says 47580, 47573, 47572 and the other 47/4's on the Norwich turns were fitted with push pull equipment. Nor can I find if DBSO's were in use. The closest I can find is the DBSO's were transferred from Scotland to be re-wired for use with the 86's.

Having been on the 1981 bashing simulator 'Hellfire', the same 47/4 that arrives at Liverpool Street, say 47572, arrives and then can end up on the next one out to Norwich, but not always. Therefore I assume there was no push pull operations at all until the 86's arrived, and maybe the odd one used a run-round loop?
Last edited: 02/05/2013 at 17:36 by Underwood
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age of tthe layout 02/05/2013 at 18:13 #44256
58050
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2650 posts 		The fact of the matter is that the push-pull with the DBSOs didn't come in until the line was electrified to Norwich & the Cl.86/2s were allocated to work the Liverpool Street - Norwich & Harwich services. Prior to that when they were diesel hauled, they ran as a conventional loco hauled train. The DBSOs were from Scotrail when the Cl.47/7s finished on the Glasgow Queen Street - Edinburgh & Aberdeen services. The only difference was the Liverpool Street - Cambridge/King's Lynn services which swapped from electric to diesel to electric at Cambridge. The Stratford Cl.47/4s as you have listed Underwood, such as 47572, 47573, 47580, 47581, 47576, 47584 etc etc were never TDM fitted & therefore couldn't work with DBSOs.
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