Shortcut keys

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Re: Shortcut keys 11/11/2011 at 08:55 #22740
GeoffM
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" said:
The Trent Valley desk - is this reality or your home setup?
That's a real desk.

" said:
However, the benefits must be negated somewhat by the constant need to turn one's head to see all the screens.
The screens and desk are designed so that a signaller sat in the middle is able to see several screens at once. In fact, not moving your head for long periods is worse than turning your head often.

" said:
The train controller sims I have enjoyed most of all are those I've been able to fit onto a single screen, even if this means reducing its scope.
I can see this is going to be a recurring theme. NO real life control area fits onto a single screen*, so to want such is unrealistic.

* Except Nairn perhaps, which requires attention a couple of times per hour.

" said:
If the man in the signal box could ask for the most ergonomically efficient display, it would probably be a large single screen with the utmost attention paid to the user interface.
Visually this would be a disaster. To fit all the information on a single screen would require ultra high resolution and tiny characters. Tiny characters/symbols means eyestrain.

" said:
SimSig should be no different. Being a game and not reality inevitably requires that some compromises be made. Let's not fool ourselves; this is just a game - we are not controlling real trains.
Apart from the game part, yes I agree - a compromise has to be made, and has been made as you already allude to. Whether than compromise is right is in the eye of the beholder. Most people are happy with it; others, like you, are not.

" said:
Quote:
Eastleigh does not have an ARS - but you do! It has been programmed to handle most of the main passenger workings, with the exception of call-on routes, shunt routes, and any routes into sidings, yards, or goods lines.
Not realistic at all - but much more playable.
Well, it's not realistic in that Eastleigh has ARS - but ARS does exist in many other pleaces which is realistic. One of your compromises in action, you see.

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Re: Shortcut keys 11/11/2011 at 09:04 #22741
GeoffM
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" said:
many minor but frustrating bugs (such as TDs suddenly disappearing, trains becoming unaccountably stuck) these would probably not be tolerated in a real life training sim.
I see you have leaped to the formidable conclusion that they are bugs and not user error. I think that really sums up the attitude going on here.

FWIW no software is ever bug free, including my own. But for goodness sake don't make such bold and arrogant statements. For one thing, if you are wrong then you will have made yourself look rather foolish. Carry on like it and nobody will want to help you because they have learnt your ways. It's simple: ask a question, you get an answer. Make a statement that turns out to be wrong, people start ignoring you.

Again, I am aware that the manual/wiki needs improvement, which also requires helpful and constructive criticism to help us understand what you don't understand. Not rants.

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Re: Shortcut keys 11/11/2011 at 09:05 #22742
derbybest
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Well said geoff

Chris

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Re: Shortcut keys 11/11/2011 at 09:12 #22743
GeoffM
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" said:
Bearing in mind that the user alternates frequently between keyboard and mouse (to interpose TDs, for example), the number of keypresses and clicks should be reduced to the minimum. One solution is for more things to happen when one hovers over an object with a mouse.
In real life, the keyboard plays a much larger role. Many signallers actually prefer using the keyboard to using the trackerball (for some reason, trackerballs are preferred by the ergognomes over mice). Most tasks can be achieved using either the trackerball or the keyboard, since one acts as a backup for the other, which is mighty useful when you drop your dinner down a desk-embedded trackerball (yes, I've seen it done).

Keyboard commands vary between control systems but generally take the form of:
S123 S456 [SET] - set a route from S123 to S456
R123AM [SET] - set route R123AM
P456 [NORM] - key points P456 to the normal position
1A23 [TBIC] (then move trackerball to signal to interpose at) - trackerball interpose at a signal
0123 1A56 [INT] - interpose 1A56 into berth 0123
Words in [square brackets] indicate buttons on the custom keyboard.

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Re: Shortcut keys 11/11/2011 at 09:13 #22744
Noisynoel
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" said:
Quote:
How's that TD suddenly disappearing? Is it location-specific?
From memory it occurred with some goods trains in some yards getting "xxxx" in their TDs or sometimes losing their berths completely. I didn't note down the details, but will keep a lookout next time. Thanks for asking.
Have you checked the manual to ensure that this is not correct operation for the sim... It's in the Wiki, it's also been discussed on here numerous times!

More to the point, TD's dissapearing is a common occurance on NR, Monday for example, we kept lossing the TD's on certain berths at City Thameslink, not helpful when the train service is already decimated!

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Re: Shortcut keys 11/11/2011 at 09:24 #22745
Peter Bennet
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And on many real panels there is no TD step for shunt routes- see Sheffield Sim which replicates this.
I understand real Perth panel has no TDs at all since the system broke 15 or so years ago.

Peter


[Note to self remove all shunt TD steps from my sims because it's probably wrong]

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Re: Shortcut keys 11/11/2011 at 11:07 #22754
kbarber
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Further comment Maxand: for many of us, SimSig is ideal precisely because it replicates reality. Some of us (guilty m'lud) are ex-signalmen and some are currently signallers, on the national system. Others are involved with heritage operations, or on the technical side. My (official) experience is all with mechanical frames (the unofficial extends to OCS, IFS and NX panels of all vintages from 1949 to 1970s, but not to VDU operation).

The graphics, as they appear on SimSig, are as close to reality as can be managed. Among my late father's papers I have a spec (probably one of the earliest) for VDU displays for signalling input; I think it's dated sometime in the mid- or late 1980s. BR was very good at researching what worked - it had 150-odd years experience (and a lot of Inspecting Officers' reports) to draw on after all. Like SSI and ARS, they seem to have got the VDU display pretty-much right first time (if anyone knows Leicester PSB & could confirm that the VDU displays there are SimSig-like that would confirm it). Certainly this layout has become the standard throughout NR, as the picture from Rugby shows.

Learning to be a signalman/signaller takes work. VDU input isn't quite as intuitive as an NX panel. It's a lot easier than getting your head around an OCS panel, believe me, with a mechanical frame somewhere between the two IMO. But the challenge of keeping a railway moving with all the constraints of reality including limitations like not shunting a freight into a section occupied by a passenger train unless that kind of working is authorised. (Incidentally, AFAIAA Crewe - before the 1985 resignalling - was about the only place where both passenger and freight could be worked permissively at the same time on the same line, so although it could be done it was very exceptional.)

And remember fully-automatic train describers are associated with the Regulations for Train Signalling, which are descended from the old fashioned Absolute Block regulations where the only descriptions were given by manually-rung bell codes; now they really do need some learning, particularly if you're in an area where the bells will take fast ringing.

All of which is why I prefer SimSig to any of the other offerings I've come across.

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Re: Shortcut keys 11/11/2011 at 14:31 #22761
UKTrainMan
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" said:
So I guess in real life too one can speed up time, remove a train or shorten its length so it will fit in a siding?
No but you probably don't realise how many people would want the speed feature to stay. It's very useful during really quiet times in timetables, and plus loading up the London Liverpool Street ('LivSt'or London Waterloo ('Waterloo'simulations and leaving it completely on ARS at full speed is rather fun to watch .

Same goes for being able to remove a train or shorten it, again great features that some may be lost without in really tricky situation. As the Wiki says
Quote:
Extreme measures

to be used only as a last resort!

Remove train - if there is absolutely nothing else you can do with a train that is blocking something, then this option can be used to remove the train from the area. You may need to cancel the train description if it is left behind.

Adjust length - if you have put a train into a platform that is too short, you can shorten the train so that it fits.

One could start a poll on the forum asking which signalling game/simulation users prefer, but one shall not out of respect for the others' efforts (plus, as it would be here on the SimSig forum, it would be an overwhelming result for SimSig). SimSig IS the most realistic, no doubt. Meanwhile, others have crazy colours (blue? BLUE? I challenge you to find me a blue screen on which signalling of trains is done via in any IECC, SCC, ASC, PSB, etc. here in the Uk) and crazy methods of control (right clicking on a train then selecting the route to set?!!). I totally regret trying the others out as I'm still having nightmares!

Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for.
Last edited: 11/11/2011 at 14:38 by UKTrainMan
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Re: Shortcut keys 11/11/2011 at 14:48 #22762
kbarber
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" said:
<snip>
and crazy methods of control (right clicking on a train then selecting the route to set?!!).

I've an idea this (or perhaps left click) is used in Switzerland. I recall watching through the glass front at Kandersteg one very busy evening a few years ago. The Fahrdienst wasn't using the panel, although the routes he was setting were certainly being set there. I wasn't close enough to see the VDU he was using that clearly, but in the end I worked out that it was showing the route from south of Goppenstein almost to the outskirts of Spiez. And he was clearly clicking on the descriptions of approaching trains and selecting a route from a drop-down menu of possible destinations that appeared (the clue was that, for northbound trains in the Loetschberg Tunnel, the menu had 5 items, corresponding to the 4 car loading bays plus the main line). As most traffic other than the car shuttles was straight through, all other signals had been set to work automatically but, as is common in Switzerland, remaining at danger until the train had passed the preceding hauptsignal (stop signal) then clearing rapidly before sighting the vorsignal (distant or repeater).

I have a suspicion that this was a prelude to transferring control to the large new signalling centre at Spiez - control of the Interlaken line had already been transferred and the local panels taken out of use.

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Re: Shortcut keys 11/11/2011 at 15:11 #22763
headshot119
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Thanks for your vigorous feedback. I can see this will be a long and difficult apprenticeship.

Before getting myself into hotter water I see I'll need to spend more time making sense of the interface and conventions that you gentlemen seem to take for granted. From the viewpoint of a programmer with a particular interest in software usability (read playability here), SimSig's interface and documentation still leave much to be desired, maybe because playability has been compromised for realism.



The Trent Valley desk - is this reality or your home setup? No matter, it's impressive and thanks for posting it. The key feature here, justifying the expense of all these monitors, is that the eye is faster than the mouse wheel. I don't know which causes more eyestrain, jerky scrolling or multiple page views. The best solution is neither, as Trent Valley shows. However, the benefits must be negated somewhat by the constant need to turn one's head to see all the screens. The train controller sims I have enjoyed most of all are those I've been able to fit onto a single screen, even if this means reducing its scope.

Regarding the wiki, go have a look the thread entitled "What do you want to see on the wiki?" add something constructive to it then we can get going on improving the documentation.

The photo as Geoff has said already is the Trent Valley desk in Rugby SCC (Signaling Control Center.) The monitors which you can see in the background run the length of the ops floor. This gives everyone on the floor a display from the buffer stops at London Euston, to just south of Stoke On Trent. Including the Northampton Branch.

The monitors in the foreground form the control desk (work station, Panel) called the Trent Valley Desk. These show the signaler a detailed view of the areas they control. You mentioned that Simsig has a cluttered interface. To quote a member of staff from Rugby "That's a lot cleaner than what we get." That was just after I loaded up a sim for him to have a look at as we'd spent most of the day trying to explain to each other the difference between Simsig and the real thing. I think that says it all for the Simsig interface really.

As for the comment in that your home setup or the real thing.

I wouldn't say I'm the average Simsig player, no in terms of hardware setup anyway, and for a long time I enjoyed hosting multiplayer games for people rather than playing myself. However this picture illustrates my set up.



Three 23" monitors make up the main part of it. When I'm playing these will show the panel I am playing on and the workstations either side of me on the larger sims (Like Saltley illustrated.) or if it's a smaller sim like Exeterl, Westbury, or Gloucester I can see the whole sim in front of me.

The smaller 17" monitor to the right is used during multiplayer sessions to hold the chat box, the train list, and anything else to run the sim. If I'm playing a sim I usually put facebook on there, or may use it for extra screen views.

Why do I do it? It's a hell of a lot easier than trying to play a sim on a laptop sized screen where even a sim like Exeter becomes difficult to play solo. Money costs, not really relevant they weren't bought for SimSig.

"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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Re: Shortcut keys 11/11/2011 at 15:17 #22764
alvinhochun
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Oh my, you have so many monitors (and graphics output!)
I only have two 1440x900 :P

However I see that windowed sims aren't so good at multiple monitors. If the window is moved to another monitor, context menus will appear on the first monitor lol (but I later found that SimSig actually uses the screen absolute position to show menus, even a problem when the window is moved a bit. Can't see any problem on a scrolley though.)

Someday when I have time I am getting some USB->VGA converter and some old 1024x768 mon.

_ _ _ _,_ _ _ _! (censored by the Hong Kong national security law)
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Re: Shortcut keys 11/11/2011 at 15:42 #22765
Peter Bennet
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S'pose the ultimate would be an array of Alan's touch screen monitors. Give it a greenish background and you almost have an NX panel I guess.

Peter

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Re: Shortcut keys 11/11/2011 at 15:47 #22766
headshot119
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Your giving me ideas Peter.

A2 Electronics project, build a 00 gauge model of an NX panel based Simsig, and replicate the interlocking?

"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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Re: Shortcut keys 11/11/2011 at 15:52 #22767
Peter Bennet
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Would an iphone thingy be about the right scale?

Peter

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Re: Shortcut keys 11/11/2011 at 20:26 #22773
Lardybiker
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I only a couple of things to say after reading all this....

1) SimSigs big brother application is used by NR to train real signallers for real signalling. The graphics are, as far as I can tell, identical to SimSigs except the NR sims and trainers have a few more bells and whistles (well alright, a lot more) but otherwise they look the same....How more authentic can you get? I see no reason to change it.

2) It saddens me to see what all the many hours of development time put in by the developers (of which I am fortunate to be one) and the testers developing sims, all of we we do for free (other than the satisfaction of the creation of the end result), is rewarded by. Hmmmmm.

3) Going back to the original question, some of the key presses are sim specific. In South Humberside, I have set up specific letter keys to jump to specific locations. Obviously you can't use the ones Geoff uses for main sim Control (so press 'i' is out to skip to Immingham!!!). These *should* be in the Wiki assuming there are in the current public version (I have so many versions I forget what I put in which!!!). If they aren't in the current public version then they will be in the next release version when I finish it.....But that's no for this thread!!! Anyway, I am pretty sure several other sims too have similar shortcuts but again, it depends on the developer, the particular sim and when the sim was released. Early sims may not have had this feature available and some developers may not have used it.

Last edited: 11/11/2011 at 20:29 by Lardybiker
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Re: Shortcut keys 13/11/2011 at 20:23 #22866
clive
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" said:

Before getting myself into hotter water I see I'll need to spend more time making sense of the interface and conventions that you gentlemen seem to take for granted. From the viewpoint of a programmer with a particular interest in software usability (read playability here), SimSig's interface and documentation still leave much to be desired, maybe because playability has been compromised for realism.

Newbies and devil's advocates have a lot in common They are usually on the other side of a tall fence from software and website developers.
You raise some interesting points.

Firstly, the raison d'etre of SimSig is realism. That argues against adding "usability" features just because they make it easier to play. As others have said, the operation of SimSig is very close to a real IECC.

I've been on both sides of this debate and I know what it's like. I don't accept that we need to add lots of tool tips and shortcuts, "what does it do", and so on. I do accept that our documentation leaves a fair amount to be desired; we do need more help from newbies and devil's advocates to remind us of the things that we take for granted from familiarity but they're not used to.

If existing popup messages or error messages are unclear, that's something we could adjust fairly easily. Please make suggestions.

Can I suggest that you load up SimSig Wembley Suburban. One of the splash screens shows the actual workstation that this simulates. You can compare appearance and features quite easily.

(By the way, are you coming to the Derby meet? I'd love to chat about this sort of thing.)

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Re: Shortcut keys 15/11/2011 at 03:11 #22950
maxand
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Thanks Clive. I'd like to chat with you guys over a beer but as I live in Melbourne Australia this kinda makes things difficult.

Quote:
Firstly, the raison d'etre of SimSig is realism. That argues against adding "usability" features just because they make it easier to play. As others have said, the operation of SimSig is very close to a real IECC.
Spoken like a true masochist (only joking). From what I have seen in pics others have posted, I think we simmers have it worse than in real life. We have to switch pages or scroll whereas they have a panoramic view across multiple displays. We are constantly alternating between mouse and keyboard with ill-placed keys such as the arrow keys, whereas they seem to have trackballs they don't have to use, so can confine their hands easily to the keyboard and touch type merrily all day without having to look at their fingers. They even have custom keys such as [SET] (so Geoff M says). They can see signal numbers instantly. We have to fiddle windows until we find the manual page or signal PDF file.

Well, true simmers can get along without glitzy tools such as hover messages and tooltips, but one can still graft lots of messageboxes (popup windows) onto the original Delphi code. One of the most annoying features of a messagebox can be that many programmers rely on the user to close it, instead of making it disappear spontaneously after a set time. Another one is that programmers get lazy about giving the user the ability to disable it or others en masse when the lesson has been learnt. A case of fine-tuning the software.

The third problem with popups is that not enough care is put into its text to ensure that the message explains the problem adequately and points towards a helpful solution. It reminds me of the famous, if apocryphal, story about the lost pilot flying over Seattle. Since each sim is a wonder on its own, it may be more difficult to make sure a new message finds its way to all sims.

For this reason I suggested elsewhere that a special fictitious tutorial sim be created, where all the necessary spoonfeeding can be done (a kind of "nursery"), and to which new features can be added as they appear in sims based on real localities.

I'll certainly take a look at Wembley Suburban, thanks for your suggestion.

Last edited: 15/11/2011 at 03:16 by maxand
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Re: Shortcut keys 15/11/2011 at 09:19 #22960
nickjames1983
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Hi guys

I just thought i would like to say my piece, I was up in Liverpool street iecc fri and I think that the people have created this game should be happy with what they have done as it is virtual the same as what the signallers have up there

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Re: Shortcut keys 15/11/2011 at 13:11 #22974
clive
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" said:

One of the most annoying features of a messagebox can be that many programmers rely on the user to close it, instead of making it disappear spontaneously after a set time.
On the contrary, stuff that disappears before you've had time to read it is really annoying.

Quote:
The third problem with popups is that not enough care is put into its text to ensure that the message explains the problem adequately and points towards a helpful solution.
As I've already said, if you have specific examples we can look at fixing them.

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Re: Shortcut keys 15/11/2011 at 13:26 #22976
Noisynoel
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" said:
Thanks Clive. I'd like to chat with you guys over a beer but as I live in Melbourne Australia this kinda makes things difficult.

Quote:
Firstly, the raison d'etre of SimSig is realism. That argues against adding "usability" features just because they make it easier to play. As others have said, the operation of SimSig is very close to a real IECC.
Spoken like a true masochist (only joking). From what I have seen in pics others have posted, I think we simmers have it worse than in real life. We have to switch pages or scroll whereas they have a panoramic view across multiple displays. .

Actually in British IECC's that is not always the case. Ashford IECC for example, the signaller has (IIRC) 4 displays for his area of control, however, he can have 6 or 7 differnet views he needs to switchbetween in order to carry out his job to the best of his ability.

Quote:
We are constantly alternating between mouse and keyboard with ill-placed keys such as the arrow keys, whereas they seem to have trackballs they don't have to use, so can confine their hands easily to the keyboard and touch type merrily all day without having to look at their fingers .

I use the mouse for the sim for everything apart fromputting in train descriptions (For obvious reasons), I find the keys exactly where I expect them to be as well.

Quote:
They can see signal numbers instantly. We have to fiddle windows until we find the manual page or signal PDF file.
.

Try right clicking on the signal with your mouse.

Quote:

For this reason I suggested elsewhere that a special fictitious tutorial sim be created, where all the necessary spoonfeeding can be done (a kind of "nursery"), and to which new features can be added as they appear in sims based on real localities. .

I believe one has already be done and is available on you tube.But feel free to do your own version. I'm sure it could even be accomodated o the Wiki. After all, it's these sort of things that relys on people stepping forward to do them, don't expect the developers to do them and then (Not saying this is you, but is a common theme on this forum) keep saying "When will the next sim be ready" because they struggle to find the time to build sims, let alone do demo's.
Don't forget, your getting something for nothing so be grateful for what you have!

Noisynoel
Last edited: 15/11/2011 at 13:28 by Noisynoel
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Re: Shortcut keys 15/11/2011 at 17:05 #22984
jc92
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ive started working an a quick 1 hour timetable for royston which features a run round, a through train, a stopping train and a splitting train which forms two new services.

im now working on a walkthrough for it going right back to basics including such basic details as: equals stopping time / equals passing time.

hopefully it will be full proof and comprehensive, I just need some time to finish it

"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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Re: Shortcut keys 15/11/2011 at 19:18 #23002
Lardybiker
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Assuming you hadn't already thought of this....Can you add certain set up items as well? Just the little things we all take or granted such as unchecking the right click cancels route box and showing shunt signals etc etc
Last edited: 15/11/2011 at 19:19 by Lardybiker
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Re: Shortcut keys 15/11/2011 at 19:24 #23003
jc92
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" said:
Assuming you hadn't already thought of this....Can you add certain set up items as well? Just the little things we all take or granted such as unchecking the right click cancels route box and showing shunt signals etc etc
i had thought of it... maybe best open a thread up for peoples ideas to be put into

"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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Re: Shortcut keys 15/11/2011 at 19:38 #23007
Lardybiker
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Or we could just this this one
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Re: Shortcut keys 15/11/2011 at 19:43 #23008
jc92
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that simplifies things
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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