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| Signalling in a possession 20/10/2011 at 22:12 #21888 | |
officer dibble
390 posts |
Evening, This links to a current TT for Bristol that I am writing..... I am curious about something (as I have never seen it at work), and hopefully someone in the know can assist. Engineering trains within possession limits, do they use "normal" signalling, or are they at the whim of the PICOP, and move around on his/her say so? Is it not technically a SPAD if they pass a red signal, even though they are in a "controlled" environment? (dependent on the above question). TIA Log in to reply |
| Re: Signalling in a possession 20/10/2011 at 23:54 #21890 | |
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mfcooper
707 posts |
Dibb, What goes on in a possession, stays in a possession. As signallers, the only time we know about an engineers train is when it is entering or leaving a block. I think there are certain rules regarding worksites within the possession, but that is stuff that track staff need to know, not me! We do, however, get asked to set routes for movements, either for engineers trains or trolleys. A lot of the time it can be by actually setting the route normally, locking the points in the position they are moved to by said route, and then cancelling the signal. Or you get out the route cards and do it from those. depends on the signaller and the PICOP. I don't think I have ever seen an engineers train being routed through a possession by the signaller, with the driver obeying signals, etc. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: officer dibble |
| Re: Signalling in a possession 21/10/2011 at 05:08 #21893 | |
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pilotman
189 posts |
Hello Dibb. Our Rule book differs from the current, but the basics are the same. Entry to the possession is always controlled by the PICOP and the signal controlling entry is fixed at danger. Exit from the possession is by agreement with the signalman and crews are advised which is the first signal they must obey. As stated above movements within the possession are 100% PICOP controlled, and any signal aspects are not relevant, but if there are operational routes the PICOP may well ask the signalman to set those if needed, so he obtains the benefit of the locking. As evidenced by a number of recent incidents it is obvious that the limits of the possession must be well defined and understood. Ray Last edited: 21/10/2011 at 05:10 by pilotman Reason: clarity Log in to reply The following user said thank you: officer dibble |
| Re: Signalling in a possession 21/10/2011 at 08:10 #21894 | |
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kbarber
1712 posts |
" said:Hello Dibb. Our Rule book differs from the current, but the basics are the same. Entry to the possession is always controlled by the PICOP and the signal controlling entry is fixed at danger. Exit from the possession is by agreement with the signalman and crews are advised which is the first signal they must obey. As stated above movements within the possession are 100% PICOP controlled, and any signal aspects are not relevant, but if there are operational routes the PICOP may well ask the signalman to set those if needed, so he obtains the benefit of the locking. Hmm... interesting. In my day, although movements within possession were under the authority of PICOP (or PIC as we used to know them), any movement requiring to pass a signal at danger required the signalman's permission as well. Not sure precisely when the change came in, but I suspect anyone running the 1985 TTs would need to know the old rule as well. (And I suppose SimSig will require any train moving in a possession to be authorised by anyway, so in a sense the old rules are coded in, albeit perhaps unintentionally.) Log in to reply |
| Re: Signalling in a possession 21/10/2011 at 08:28 #21895 | |
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clive
2738 posts |
Actually, it's possible to code signals to be ignored under certain circumstances. You've given me an idea or two ... Log in to reply |
| Re: Signalling in a possession 21/10/2011 at 09:27 #21897 | |
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pilotman
189 posts |
I am wondering how a signalman could be reasonably expected to authorise by in a possession, when only the PICOP (or his delegates) know the state of the road. For example if an engineering train needs to approach a place where several track panels have been reomoved, what instructions would the signalman give? Ray Log in to reply |
| Re: Signalling in a possession 21/10/2011 at 10:48 #21900 | |
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officer dibble
390 posts |
Thank you for the replies chaps, most informative and useful indeed 
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| Re: Signalling in a possession 23/10/2011 at 09:07 #21974 | |
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daza7789
59 posts |
Movements entering a possession, within a possession, leaving a possession and within worksites within a possession are governed by numorus different rules for different staff. will outline now: Firstly 'normal signalling is suspended within a possession, all controlled signals must me maintained at danger within a possession. Auto signals within a possession will normally still be clear if TCs etc allow it MOVEMENTS ENTERING : The signaller must always keep the signals protecting entry to the possession at danger. if a ballast train etc is required to enter the possession then the signaller must obtain the PICOPs permission. the PICOP when able to do so, will give the signaller permission to send the train to the detonater protection that protects the possession, or to enter the possession at an intermidiate point. The signaller must then manually set the route correctly, and then authorise the driver to pass the protecting signal at danger, and to proceed at caution as far as the dets only, or agreed point if train is to enter at an intermediate point. Where the driver will then recive further instructions from the PICOP (or PICOPS representitive). the train will then enter the possession limits under the instruction of the PICOP. The PICOP will then tell the signaller that the train is inside the possession limits, and that detonater protection has be replaced behind the train. Signaller MUST the ensure any points moved to get the train into the possession are reset to protect the possession. MOVEMENTS WITHIN A POSSESSION AND WITHIN WORKSITES WITHIN A POSSESSION : The only input that the signaller will ever have with train movements within a possession will be swinging points, or lowering LCs as per requested by the PICOP (if outside worksite) or the engineering supervisor(ES) (if within a worksite). Drivers Must not pass any signal within a possession or worksite at danger without the permission of the PICOP or ES. the driver may pass any signal showing a proceed aspect, but the normal meaning of the clear signal must be disregarded. A signal within a possession, or worksite, or detonater protection, if passed without the relivant permission of the PICOP or the ES is a cat A SPAD!!! Likewise the signaller will never authorise a driver to pass a signal within a possession at danger (That is the PICOPS or ES's job). MOVEMENTS LEAVING A POSSESSION: When a train is ready to leave a possession the PICOP will advise the signaller of the train ID, and where it will be exiting the possession. When the train arrives at the detonater protection to leave the possession the driver will contact the signaller. when in a safe possission to allow the train out. The SIGNALLER must PERSONALLY authorise the driver to pass the detonater protection when it has been lifted, to proceed at caution, and to OBAY ALL FURTHER SIGNALLS. Signaller then tells PICOP the driver has his instructions, and that dets can be lifted. the train will then leave when the protection is lifted, as soon as the train reaches the 1st signal beyond the dets, then normal signalling is resumed. Again the PICOP will call the signaller to advise the protection has been replaced following the train. It is also permissable to take and give up a possession around engineering trains and OTM. Any questions please ask Daz Log in to reply The following user said thank you: officer dibble |