"Run out of valid track" explained?

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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 07/12/2011 at 08:31 #24632
AndyG
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1835 posts 		Sorry, reverses behind 24, ie has to be routed beyond 59.
I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either.
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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 07/12/2011 at 08:49 #24633
maxand
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1637 posts 		Thanks. While you were posting that, I was looking for my own way to make it reverse beyond 59. Since 59 is on Filton Main DOWN and we want to go UP before reversing, it seemed wiser to set the route 553-57-131, i.e., proceeding along the Filton Main UP line:



Now it reverses as it should, though still loses its headcode (oops, should have interposed it at 57) and still vanishes into the maw of MS1.



Now I'll try your alternative suggestion.
Last edited: 07/12/2011 at 08:50 by maxand
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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 07/12/2011 at 09:09 #24634
maxand
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1637 posts 		Hey whaddaya know, that works too!



Set the route 553-59-65. Can't set the second leg of that from 59 to 24. However, when the loco stops and automatically reverses, it's now not against 59 (as I expected) but against 24. I was kinda hoping to set the next route 24-MS1 directly, as 24 is a running signal with a subsidiary shunt, but no such luck, for luck it seems to be. So instead of that we have to set 24-560-566-MS1, but never mind. Yours is the more elegant solution. Thanks for that.

What have I learned? That in this situation there isn't just one signal that can be called "Bristol East Junction" - there are at least two, possibly more that satisfy this requirement. Also that the actual signal at which a train reverses (24) need not be the one (59) to which it's routed. The reversing signal has to face the way the train will face AFTER it automatically reverses.

Truly mind-bending stuff.
Last edited: 07/12/2011 at 09:18 by maxand
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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 07/12/2011 at 10:15 #24636
BarryM
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2158 posts 		Max,
Sorry but your sarcastic remarks are not appreciated.

Simsig was designed for those interested in, and have an understanding of British Railways signalling practice and layout. If you do not know it, as you have found out it can be extremely frustrating. What you see is what you get. You need to read and learn more about it in the real world, experiment with the layouts and if you cannot resole it then ask"why is it so". Trains disappear because the rails are not "track circuited". F2 shows the trains last location.

May I suggest that you have a word with the people in Metrol or VR on what is required to become a signalman.

Barry
Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 07/12/2011 at 11:46 #24638
maxand
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1637 posts 		Hang on. I don't want to get involved in a brawl here, but

Quote:
May I suggest that you have a word with the people in Metrol or VR on what is required to become a signalman.
Our signalling practices are considerably different from those of the UK. To begin with, we use a mix of "British route signalling with home and distant signals (2 position signalling) and American speed signalling (3 position signalling)" (Wikipedia).

Quote:
Simsig was designed for those interested in, and have an understanding of British Railways signalling practice and layout. If you do not know it, as you have found out it can be extremely frustrating. What you see is what you get.
If I wasn't interested, I wouldn't still be posting here. Moreover, I just can't believe that any signaller (or driver) responsible for an area such as Bristol, given the limited amount of information in the accompanying manual, would know instinctively what routes to set, nor that he would not confer with the driver (or his Controller) in such a situation. In the above example we see at least two possible reversing routes for this loco driver to take. If the driver didn't have some kind of handbook saying "If you are cleared forward through signals 59 to 65, you must know to stop at signal 24 and reverse." I can't believe that a vague directive such as "Bristol East Jn Reverse" would be considered adequate for both driver and signaller. In other words, one of them has to know if this sim is to be considered authentic. I imagine that what would happen in real life is that the signaller would call the driver, saying "I've cleared you to signal 65 along the main, please reverse at 24."

IMO, to run out of valid track unexpectedly in this situation should not be blamed on the sim player who honestly believed he had correctly identified the signal at which to reverse. It's just situations like this in real life which cause real accidents.

Yes, I realized later that the sidings weren't TC'd, explaining why the train appeared to vanish, but as discussed elsewhere on the forum, the potential to run out of valid track is not well signposted in this game and not entirely bug-free, either.

The next thing I intend to test here is whether the loco can be retrieved from the "out of valid track" situation.
Last edited: 07/12/2011 at 12:35 by maxand
Reason: Added link to Wikipedia article
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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 07/12/2011 at 12:03 #24639
ralphjwchadkirk
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275 posts 		Bristol East Junction Reverse would be in the signallers WTT and on the drivers diagram. Through both of their route knowledge, they will know what to do. Drivers spend hundreds of hours learning their routes, and all the various shunts that are done.
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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 07/12/2011 at 12:10 #24640
postal
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5197 posts 		" said:
Bristol East Junction Reverse would be in the signallers WTT and on the drivers diagram. Through both of their route knowledge, they will know what to do. Drivers spend hundreds of hours learning their routes, and all the various shunts that are done.
. . . and as part of the attraction of SimSig is to be as true to life as possible, perhaps that is why it is set up as it is, with the expectation that the user will think for him/herself and spend the time working out how to make the various moves. I'm sorry, but Janet and John SimSig is not to my taste.
“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 07/12/2011 at 12:23 #24641
maxand
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1637 posts 		(continued from my previous post)

Quote:
The next thing I intend to test here is whether the loco can be retrieved from the "out of valid track" situation.
And yes, it can! Thankfully, 0C080 hasn't disappeared from the Train List, so one can still signal the driver and tell him to reverse, once a route has been set from 555 to 59. Here 0C080 "emerges" from non-TC'd track.



After this, it's a simple matter to repeat the steps illustrated earlier of clearing the loco to signal 65 (or a signal parallel to it if on a parallel track), whence it stops at 24, reverses and disappears at MS1 without running out of valid track. Ho hum.

But that's not quite the end of the story. Knowing what I know now, let's take a look at Bristol East Jn again:



It now becomes apparent that no fewer than five signals can act as "Bristol East Jn Reverse", depending on which line is selected according to need. Wish I hadn't wasted time finding this out the hard way.

One more thing. I was told:
Quote:
What you see is what you get. You need to read and learn more about it in the real world...
So I thought I'd check the real world and googled "out of valid track". Surprise, surprise, the only references I can find are pages in SimSig forums. This means to me that this message is fabricated by SimSig software, not something that signallers experience in real life, although I guess there might be similar error messages put out by some of their software. Thus this message should be taken with a big grain of salt. I mean, if I saw a train vanish, TC'd or not, combined with the message "out of valid track" in real life, I would do something nasty in my pants and need counselling. So much for imitating "the real world".
Last edited: 07/12/2011 at 12:32 by maxand
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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 07/12/2011 at 12:24 #24642
GoochyB
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222 posts 		And the "run out of valid track" message only arose because you manually told the driver to reverse direction, thereby over-riding the timetable, but did not update the timetable position (via F2) so that the sim knew that instead of keeping going until it arrived at the next timetable location (Bristol East Jn reverse) the next location for the train to arrive at was MS1
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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 07/12/2011 at 12:30 #24643
maxand
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1637 posts 		GoochyB said:
Quote:
And the "run out of valid track" message only arose because you manually told the driver to reverse direction
Correct and thank you. Looking back, my suspicions should have been aroused by being forced to signal the driver to reverse, when I would have expected direction reversal (Up to Down) to take place automatically. Been tricked by that before; hope I'll realize what's going on next time.

(Added) Also thanks Ralph and postal for your comments, which arrived while I was preparing a response. What Ralph said is what I expected, nothing less. Experience is really the accumulation of thousands of similar instances.

Ralph:
Quote:
Drivers spend hundreds of hours learning their routes, and all the various shunts that are done.
Postal:
Quote:
and as part of the attraction of SimSig is to be as true to life as possible, perhaps that is why it is set up as it is, with the expectation that the user will think for him/herself and spend the time working out how to make the various moves.

Do drivers have to figure them out in order to learn them, as we seem to do, or do they hand them all the documentation they need (for that area)?
Last edited: 07/12/2011 at 12:48 by maxand
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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 07/12/2011 at 12:38 #24644
GoochyB
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222 posts 		" said:

So I thought I'd check the real world and googled "out of valid track". Surprise, surprise, the only references I can find are pages in SimSig forums. This means to me that this message is fabricated by SimSig software, not something that signallers experience in real life, although I guess there might be similar error messages put out by some of their software. Thus this message should be taken with a big grain of salt. I mean, if I saw a train vanish, TC'd or not, combined with the message "out of valid track" in real life, I would do something nasty in my pants and need counselling. So much for imitating "the real world".
That's because it is SimSig shorthand which usually indicates that there's a problem with the operation of the timetable for that train, in this example because you have tried to over-ride it and told the (simulated) driver to do something different. In real life the driver would know that you had stepped him through the timetable skipping what was to have been the next location. The sim cannot easily take such a 'common sense' approach, because common sense is sometimes not logical and it may not be obvious what your (the signaller's) intentions were. The sim expects the train to pass the timetable locations in order, and will wait for the next one before stepping through the timetable to subsequent locations. In the sim you cannot communicate your intentions to the driver about where he should be expecting to go other than through the timetable.

In some sims where there are alternative routes the author has coded the sim to accept these and automatically step the timetable to the next common location - one that springs to mind is Stoke, where trains can be diverted to take the alternative route either via or avoiding Stoke and the sim will then ignore the intermediate locations that have consequently been bypassed. However, this cannot apply to reversing locations.
Last edited: 07/12/2011 at 12:38 by GoochyB
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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 07/12/2011 at 13:04 #24645
maxand
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1637 posts 		GoochyB:
Quote:
In the sim you cannot communicate your intentions to the driver about where he should be expecting to go other than through the timetable.
You've put your finger on it! Instead of "Waiting at red signal 59" (see first pic in post #29) we need something less cryptic to indicate the reversing signal has not been reached yet. Yeah, I know, the combination of current direction (Up) plus "Waiting" should tell us the driver still has further to go before he can reverse, but the last thing a tired, overtaxed sim player needs is to have to hang up a game he probably forgot to save when the going was good, just to puzzle out another missing bit of information.
Last edited: 07/12/2011 at 13:05 by maxand
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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 07/12/2011 at 14:11 #24649
Late Turn
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696 posts 		Perhaps what is needed in the documentation, then, is an accurate description of each reversing location in complex areas, listing the signals behind which a train will reverse if booked to do so at that location - I think Max would have sailed through this movement with that information.
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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 07/12/2011 at 14:27 #24651
postal
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5197 posts 		" said:

Postal:
Quote:
and as part of the attraction of SimSig is to be as true to life as possible, perhaps that is why it is set up as it is, with the expectation that the user will think for him/herself and spend the time working out how to make the various moves.

Do drivers have to figure them out in order to learn them, as we seem to do, or do they hand them all the documentation they need (for that area)?
I don't want to get into a brawl, but I'm sorry; Janet and John SimSig is not to my taste.
“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
Last edited: 07/12/2011 at 14:28 by postal
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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 07/12/2011 at 17:22 #24654
Steamer
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3928 posts
Online 		" said:
Janet and John
What does that mean?
"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 07/12/2011 at 17:27 #24656
Prof Jolly
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61 posts 		maybe this link will help http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janet_and_John

they are books that help children read by introducing one new word at a time
ie

Janet saw a ball
Janet saw a red ball
Janet saw a big red ball
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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 07/12/2011 at 17:29 #24657
Steamer
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3928 posts
Online 		" said:
maybe this link will help http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janet_and_John

they are books that help children read by introducing one new word at a time
ie

Janet saw a ball
Janet saw a red ball
Janet saw a big red ball
Ah right, in that case I agree with Postal.
"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 07/12/2011 at 21:50 #24666
BarryM
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2158 posts 		Quote:
May I suggest that you have a word with the people in Metrol or VR on what is required to become a signalman.

Our signalling practices are considerably different from those of the UK. To begin with, we use a mix of "British route signalling with home and distant signals (2 position signalling) and American speed signalling (3 position signalling)" (Wikipedia)..
You are out of date. Britain uses 3 position signalling (Red, Yellow, and Green). These days it could be up to 5 or 6 positions.

Barry
Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 07/12/2011 at 22:00 #24668
ralphjwchadkirk
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275 posts 		" said:
Quote:
May I suggest that you have a word with the people in Metrol or VR on what is required to become a signalman.

Our signalling practices are considerably different from those of the UK. To begin with, we use a mix of "British route signalling with home and distant signals (2 position signalling) and American speed signalling (3 position signalling)" (Wikipedia)..
You are out of date. Britain uses 3 position signalling (Red, Yellow, and Green). These days it could be up to 5 or 6 positions.

Barry

That isn't 3 position signalling, that is 3 aspect signalling. The US system, in some places, actually relies on the position of the lamps rather than the colours.
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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 07/12/2011 at 22:05 #24669
BarryM
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2158 posts 		Should we revert back to the good old days when there was no "Run out of valid track" displayed? That would throw a spanner into the works.lol.

Barry
Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 07/12/2011 at 22:22 #24671
BarryM
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2158 posts 		" said:
" said:
Quote:
May I suggest that you have a word with the people in Metrol or VR on what is required to become a signalman.

Our signalling practices are considerably different from those of the UK. To begin with, we use a mix of "British route signalling with home and distant signals (2 position signalling) and American speed signalling (3 position signalling)" (Wikipedia)..
You are out of date. Britain uses 3 position signalling (Red, Yellow, and Green). These days it could be up to 5 or 6 positions.

Barry

That isn't 3 position signalling, that is 3 aspect signalling. The US system, in some places, actually relies on the position of the lamps rather than the colours.
Thanks Ralph.

Some people use different terminology in relation to positions and aspects. VR (Metrol) use a similar system as in the UK.

Barry
Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 08/12/2011 at 00:52 #24676
maxand
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1637 posts 		BarryM:
Quote:
Should we revert back to the good old days when there was no "Run out of valid track" displayed? That would throw a spanner into the works.lol.
In this instance, I don't think it would. If I repeat my original mistake, after 0C081 vanishes into the siding and just before "Run out of valid track" appears, the message "Waiting at red signal" appears momentarily.



Note that the signal number is not specified. However, the general nature of this message is a lot less alarming than "Run out of valid track". My guess is that if one could optionally disable "Run out of valid track", it might assist troubleshooting.
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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 08/12/2011 at 03:58 #24681
Backup
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89 posts 		Chipping in with a suggestion.

If the train is briefly listed through F2 as "Waiting at (unspecified) red signal", before changing status to "Run out of valid track": Could this be the red lights conventionally affixed to buffer stops (at the end of bay platforms), being considered as a signal? (Albeit one that never changes aspect, is not shown on panels; nor assigned a number*?)

* because any driver attempting to phone the signal-box after waiting two minutes for a buffer marker to clear, should probably be gently relieved of duty
Last edited: 08/12/2011 at 04:02 by Backup
Reason: clarity, adding small joke
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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 08/12/2011 at 06:21 #24686
maxand
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1637 posts 		I don't think that would have entered the mind of the sim designer, otherwise there'd have been a specific message to that effect.

Which is not a bad idea IMO. At least it shows the train has stopped! Putting two and two together, in such a situation as MS1/2, where the train comes to a stop, at a buffer at the end of non-TC'd track, it might be clearer to display a message such as "Waiting at buffer stop".
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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 08/12/2011 at 06:23 #24687
Peter Bennet
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5363 posts
Online 		The exit arrow is coded as an independent signal.

Peter
I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
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