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Camden yard and 0M11

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Camden yard and 0M11 28/11/2011 at 09:48 #23873
y10g9
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Hi all,
Wasn't sure which section to write this in, do feel free to move it
I'm currently playing the default timetable that comes with the sim (2003) and I had 0M11 which is an electric engine come out of Camden yard which on sim says it's unwired.
Is this right and electric engines are able to come out of the yard there? Or is it a bug?
Many thanks
Nath

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Re: Camden yard and 0M11 28/11/2011 at 22:03 #23945
clive
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The various approach lines are electrified. It's only the actual yard that isn't. So an electric loco can stand at the entrance.
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Re: Camden yard and 0M11 29/11/2011 at 20:47 #24069
y10g9
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ok clive. thanks for that. was just interested as thats where he appeared from. (and i hadn't to my knowledge send one into it)
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Re: Camden yard and 0M11 13/12/2011 at 00:49 #25040
markydh
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Hi. I'm having problems with OM11. I'm left clicking on 603 as suggested in the wiki, then setting the route to signal 116, but the frame never seems to set and so OM11 just sits there ad infinitum. What am I doing wrong?
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Re: Camden yard and 0M11 13/12/2011 at 00:50 #25041
jc92
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are u opening up the lever frame window and letting it out of the yard with that?
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Re: Camden yard and 0M11 13/12/2011 at 00:55 #25044
markydh
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Ah. No. The wiki doesn't make it clear one needs to do that...
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Re: Camden yard and 0M11 13/12/2011 at 01:00 #25046
jc92
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" said:
Ah. No. The wiki doesn't make it clear one needs to do that...
the manual does say camden yard is simulated with a set of ground frames. it also says euston signaller sets the route, providing a slot for the [ground] frame operator to set the route.

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Re: Camden yard and 0M11 13/12/2011 at 01:27 #25049
markydh
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"To give a release, left-click on the right-hand lamp (the green circle); this can only be done if either the line is clear for a train to depart the yard, or a train is standing at the relevant signal waiting to enter the yard. When the release is successfully given, the right-hand lamp will start to flash and the "release" light on the frame will light up. The frame operator can then reverse the "release" lever and the lamp will become steady."

This is what the wiki says. It doesn't make it at all clear that the sim player is also the 'frame operator'. Anyway, I'm trying to release signal 43 using the East End ground frame and it still isn't working (the lever won't stay down).

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Re: Camden yard and 0M11 13/12/2011 at 02:24 #25053
indian_railways_fan
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" said:
"To give a release, left-click on the right-hand lamp (the green circle); this can only be done if either the line is clear for a train to depart the yard, or a train is standing at the relevant signal waiting to enter the yard. When the release is successfully given, the right-hand lamp will start to flash and the "release" light on the frame will light up. The frame operator can then reverse the "release" lever and the lamp will become steady."

This is what the wiki says. It doesn't make it at all clear that the sim player is also the 'frame operator'.Anyway, I'm trying to release signal 43 using the East End ground frame and it still isn't working (the lever won't stay down).
That is because SH-43 has "double control".First you need to release the frame as described in the manual.But then before pulling the signal lever on the frame,you need to set the route from SH-43 as you would set any other route in simsig.Only then can you pull the signal lever on the frame-after which the shunt signal will clear.This arrangement is probably unique to this location as it is not found on any other groundframe in simsig as far as I can recollect.

I also came across this arrangement after much trial and error.

Khalid.

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Re: Camden yard and 0M11 13/12/2011 at 09:15 #25066
clive
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" said:
It doesn't make it at all clear that the sim player is also the 'frame operator'.
True; I need to make that clearer.

To get a train out of the yard you need to do four things. Firstly, make sure the relevant ground frame ("East end"is visible on your screen. Secondly, set the route out by clicking on signals in the normal way. The route lights should light up but, if you look carefully, you'll see that the points are still set normal and not lit. You should also see a green "slot" light appear on the ground frame control. Thirdly, click on the green circle of release 603 to release the frame. You should see a white "release" light appear on the ground frame control. Finally, use the ground frame to clear the signal - you need to pull the release lever first, then the points lever (and watch the route lights when you do this), then finally the signal lever.

The signal lever can't be reversed unless the points are reversed and the slot light is lit.

The points lever can't be reversed unless the release lever is reversed.

The release lever can't be reversed unless the release light is lit.

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Re: Camden yard and 0M11 13/12/2011 at 09:16 #25067
clive
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" said:
This arrangement is probably unique to this location as it is not found on any other groundframe in simsig as far as I can recollect.
I've never come across this "set a fake route to give the ground frame a slot" system anywhere else. It was a real pain to get working, I can tell you.

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Re: Camden yard and 0M11 13/12/2011 at 11:45 #25077
markydh
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At first it still wouldn't work following Clive's idiot guide, until I realise that one had to pull down '42' and '44' before '43' could be pulled down! Crisis averted. Thanks.
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Re: Camden yard and 0M11 13/12/2011 at 17:49 #25173
kbarber
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" said:
" said:
This arrangement is probably unique to this location as it is not found on any other groundframe in simsig as far as I can recollect.
I've never come across this "set a fake route to give the ground frame a slot" system anywhere else. It was a real pain to get working, I can tell you.

Speculation alert!!!

This may conceivably have come about because Euston was (surprisingly) relatively early in the development of modern power signalling. A number of powerboxes built for the WCML electrification had "shunting frames" controlling outlying locations; they were rather more than mere ground frames and invariably contained in a building (sometimes a former signalbox, in several cases the smallest size of LMR Type 15 box built new for the purpose). Manning was by a shunter - after the "Pay and Efficiency" restructuring of the 1970s(?) usually graded Senior Railman - which obviously saved a fair bit of money. It also allowed the frame to be manned "as required", even when movements were taking place, saving more staff. Often points in the main line would be mechanically worked and the PSB would set routes through them only when normal, just like a normal ground frame. But I've an idea there were some places where the shunt frame had a dual control on motor points and routes through them could be set by either the PSB or the shunt frame, according to who had the release at the time. (I've an idea Leighton Buzzard may have been one such.) That might explain the arrangement at Euston.

It might also be relevant that Camden was worked by power frames from before WWI. (Am I right in thinking that one of the Camden boxes was destroyed by fire in WWII and an L frame installed in its replacement vice the Crewe frame originally installed?) If power operation already existed that might've influenced the design of these facilities.

From the same era, the resignalling for the Bournemouth electrification of 1967 included a couple of panel boxes. One, at Eastleigh, had oversight of a former signalbox near Winchester where the line from Alton (now the Watercress Line) joined the main line. The old box was normally closed but had to be opened for traffic on & off the branch, which was worked by electric tablet - the tablet machine was retained in the junction box. I believe Eastleigh had fully-controlled signals through the junction box control area (rather than the semi-autos that would have been normal for a ground frame at that date) but when the junction box opened it took control of the signals on the main line too and functioned for all purposes as a fully-fledged signalbox.

Take a look at this http://www.signalbox.org/diagrams.php?id=85 for a really good shunt frame - 51 working levers (70 lever frame), with routes associated with several Bletchley (powerbox) signals, three sets of Bletchley's points (the main line crossovers north of the station) also controlled from the frame and even a ground frame of its own (with two releases)!

Last edited: 13/12/2011 at 17:55 by kbarber
Reason: Found Leighton Buzzard diagram

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Re: Camden yard and 0M11 13/12/2011 at 18:23 #25177
jc92
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speaking of big shunt frames working with PSBs- washwood heath No1 and stapleford and sandiacre work in a similar manner of signalling certain routes over mainlines when in operation
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Re: Camden yard and 0M11 13/12/2011 at 20:50 #25212
BarryM
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What type of frame was used for the Shunt Frame?

Barry

Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
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Re: Camden yard and 0M11 13/12/2011 at 22:01 #25287
jc92
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washwood heath is an ex midland box with tumbler frame, S and S is a large LMS box with a large tumbler frame
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Re: Camden yard and 0M11 14/12/2011 at 10:24 #25444
kbarber
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" said:
What type of frame was used for the Shunt Frame?

Barry

In one of the new (LMR Type 15) structures it was invariably the most modern Derby/REC tappet frame. Where an existing 'box was retained as the shunt frame, it would be whatever frame was already installed (unless perchance that frame itself needed replacement). I'm pretty certain Leighton Buzzard was the old box retained, so it will have been a Webb frame of some description (with the "stirrup" catch handles extending from the front of the levers). I suspect it was a relatively early box, dating from the quadrupling of that section, so my money would be on a Webb Tumbler frame, but that is pure speculation & anyone who knows is welcome to correct me.

(Incidentally I'd be surprised if S&S is actually a tumbler frame; the Midland Railway had developed a tappet frame by the early 20th century and the REC variant of it - simplified castings and more pressings - was the LMS standard. There was little to distinguish them externally, but you could tell them apart by peering down into the slots the levers ran in - a single centre-pivoted slotted link denoted a tappet frame, while a rotating shaft on each side of the lever was a tumbler.)

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Re: Camden yard and 0M11 14/12/2011 at 12:04 #25455
BarryM
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2140 posts
" said:
" said:
What type of frame was used for the Shunt Frame?

Barry

In one of the new (LMR Type 15) structures it was invariably the most modern Derby/REC tappet frame. Where an existing 'box was retained as the shunt frame, it would be whatever frame was already installed (unless perchance that frame itself needed replacement). I'm pretty certain Leighton Buzzard was the old box retained, so it will have been a Webb frame of some description (with the "stirrup" catch handles extending from the front of the levers). I suspect it was a relatively early box, dating from the quadrupling of that section, so my money would be on a Webb Tumbler frame, but that is pure speculation & anyone who knows is welcome to correct me.

(Incidentally I'd be surprised if S&S is actually a tumbler frame; the Midland Railway had developed a tappet frame by the early 20th century and the REC variant of it - simplified castings and more pressings - was the LMS standard. There was little to distinguish them externally, but you could tell them apart by peering down into the slots the levers ran in - a single centre-pivoted slotted link denoted a tappet frame, while a rotating shaft on each side of the lever was a tumbler.)
Thanks Ken. Much appreciated.

Barry

Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
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Camden yard and 0M11 16/04/2013 at 18:33 #43578
HortonRoad
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It's been a long time since anyone commented here but I've been tearing my hair out(what little I have left) trying to get this loco out of the yard and trying to follow the instructions. As I had so many other trains stacked up on both lines to Euston from Willesden I decided to restart the simulation but in the 1960s as opposed to the 1980s era. Lo and behold the controls for 603 and 604 appeared, whereas before only 603 was visible (also in 1990s). I haven't got to 0M11 yet but assume I'm successful in getting it out of the yard unless I post again. The question though is how will I get it out of the yard in the 80s and 90s eras as half the ground frame disappears. I'm running under Windoze 7 with loads of memory and oodles of disc space.

I'm also just off out to drink copious amounts of ale and play doms at the local pub so wish me luck on all scores.

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Camden yard and 0M11 17/04/2013 at 09:12 #43596
clive
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The provided timetable doesn't require you to use 604 at all. So it shouldn't matter which era you are in.

The east end ground frame (603) works the same in all eras except for lever 45, which won't affect you.

To summarize what you need to do:
* Click on CY43 then 116. Route lights should come on.
* Click on the green circle of 603. It should flash.
* Open up the ground frame display.
* Check for the green slot light. If it's off, you need to do the first step again.
* Pull 42, 44, 43 in that order.

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Camden yard and 0M11 17/04/2013 at 13:13 #43597
HortonRoad
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In my total ignorance before I did not open up the ground frame. I have found it now, and it worked, but that does not excuse my thickness in finding it initially at Show on the menu bar. Thank you again.


* Click on CY43 then 116. Route lights should come on.
* Click on the green circle of 603. It should flash.
* Open up the ground frame display. Found on the menu bar under 'Show' Select Lever Frames and then 'Camden Yard East end'
* Check for the green slot light. If it's off, you need to do the first step again.
* Pull 42, 44, 43 in that order.

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