Page 1 of 1
| Signal 5 30/12/2011 at 11:55 #26449 | |
Steamer
3923 posts |
Hi, Why does this signal and others continually re-set their routes, despite the fact that they aren't automatic and don't have an 'auto' button? "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
| Re: Signal 5 30/12/2011 at 12:28 #26450 | |
Peter Bennet
5362 posts |
Short answer is - because they do. I seem to recall the longer answer (why) was discussed before but I can't immediately find it and can't remember the details. Also applies to 190, 90, 13, 191, 100. If you pull the route it'll stop doing it- basically it acts like a semi-auto without the button. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Last edited: 30/12/2011 at 12:29 by Peter Bennet Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Steamer |
| Re: Signal 5 30/12/2011 at 13:03 #26452 | |
maxand
1637 posts |
Thanks Peter. I've been playing Exeter, so it's nice to know this. Signal 5 is on the Up Main, just past the Buckfastleigh siding, if anyone else wants to try it. Steamer, when you said "continually re-set their routes", did you mean the white route strip disappears indicating spontaneous cancellation? Also that the green spontaneously changes to red? Most unusual. That's an unexpected nuisance. Bug or "realism"? Maybe the solution is to leave the route unset till you need it? Log in to reply |
| Re: Signal 5 30/12/2011 at 13:31 #26454 | |
|
Peter Bennet
5362 posts |
" said:
No: in all respects it behaves like any other semi-auto, just without the A button " said:
Realism, for which I don't know the reason. " said:
Why? In all other respects these could have be Auto signals given they are on plain line. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Last edited: 30/12/2011 at 16:39 by Peter Bennet Log in to reply |
| Re: Signal 5 30/12/2011 at 13:34 #26455 | |
jc92
3630 posts |
http://www.SimSig.co.uk/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=36&id=19760&limit=10&limitstart=10&Itemid=145#19950 that was one post where i remember raising the issue before i suspect that the signals are like that, so they will work automatically, but if needed during shunting, replatforming, degraded working etc, they can be replaced to prevent a train proceed onwards through the automatic sections. possibly a rarity/ experiment linked with the period when exeter was commissioned "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Re: Signal 5 30/12/2011 at 14:06 #26462 | |
|
kbarber
1712 posts |
Well it's the Western isn't it... they always have done things their own way on the Gas Works Railway 
Log in to reply The following users said thank you: jc92, UKTrainMan |
| Re: Signal 5 30/12/2011 at 15:29 #26469 | |
|
Didcot
41 posts |
You mean God's Wonderful Railway don't you.?
Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Sam Tugwell |
| Re: Signal 5 30/12/2011 at 15:45 #26470 | |
|
Steamer
3923 posts |
" said:No: in all respects it behaves like any other semi-auto, just without the A button What is the definition of a semi-auto? I assume here you mean a controlled signal with an 'A' button, but I thought a semi auto was an automatic signal with an 'E' button. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Last edited: 30/12/2011 at 16:30 by Steamer Reason: Fix quote Log in to reply |
| Re: Signal 5 30/12/2011 at 16:22 #26472 | |
|
Late Turn
696 posts |
Neither definition given so far is correct. Peter seems to be referring to a controlled signal with an auto button (or without in this case!), Steamer refers to a simple automatic signal - the replacement button doesn't change the definition. A semi-automatic signal is (without seeking a properly written definition!) an automatic signal that can be replaced to Danger by the operator of a ground frame or crossing box to protect activities there.
Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Steamer |
| Re: Signal 5 30/12/2011 at 17:14 #26475 | |
|
ralphjwchadkirk
275 posts |
A Semi-Autmatic signal is a signal normally operated by the passage of trains, but which can also be controlled by a Signal Box or Ground Frame. On new projects a Controlled Signal would be provided. http://www.rgsonline.co.uk/Railway_Group_Standards/Control%20Command%20and%20Signalling/Guidance%20Notes/GKGN0802%20Iss%201.pdf Last edited: 30/12/2011 at 17:15 by ralphjwchadkirk Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Steamer |
| Re: Signal 5 30/12/2011 at 17:33 #26479 | |
|
jc92
3630 posts |
" said:A Semi-Autmatic signal is a signal normally operated by the passage of trains, but which can also be controlled by a Signal Box or Ground Frame. On new projects a Controlled Signal would be provided.thats the correct definition (of course it is its from the rulebook!). straight from the horses mouth of someone involved in the writing and evaluation of rulebooks, and very senior with NR signalling management- automatics signals with emergency replacement switches are NOT semi automatic signals, they are indeed just automatics. as ralphjwchadkirk and late turn have said, semi automatic signals are replaced by a ground frame, signal box, or similar to protect activities occuring there. theoretically theres many possibilities as to where this could occur although as previously said, crossings and ground frames are the most typical. as far as im aware an automatic signal protecting a crossing, which is slotted to a crossing box (medge hall and finningley spring to mind) the signals are normally plated as controlled, although im not sure what class of signal they actually are. the easy way to settle this debate is for someone to check the plating on these signals (im thinking mr tugwell if he reads this) although i would say they are manual signals with an "automatically always on automatic button" (its a technical term, honest!) "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Re: Signal 5 30/12/2011 at 17:34 #26480 | |
|
Stephen Fulcher
2026 posts 
|
" said:" said:If memory serves me correctly, in the first (paged) version of Exeter these were all "fitted" with A buttons. Log in to reply |
| Re: Signal 5 30/12/2011 at 20:32 #26486 | |
|
Late Turn
696 posts |
" said:" said:A Semi-Autmatic signal is a signal normally operated by the passage of trains, but which can also be controlled by a Signal Box or Ground Frame. On new projects a Controlled Signal would be provided. Medge Hall's protecting signals, if I'm not mistaken, are plated as semi-automatic in both directions. Not a clue how the signal in question at Exeter is plated though! Many thanks to Ralph for providing the Rule Book definition (of a semi automatic signal) that I didn't have time to seek out. Log in to reply |
| Re: Signal 5 30/12/2011 at 20:50 #26487 | |
|
jc92
3630 posts |
" said:they are. just checked my diagrams and stand corrected! "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Re: Signal 5 30/12/2011 at 21:10 #26488 | |
|
Late Turn
696 posts |
Glad to hear it - didn't have time to get any diagrams out (and don't always trust them anyway!), so I was relying on previous dog-walking along the canal bank!
Log in to reply |
| Re: Signal 5 30/12/2011 at 21:44 #26489 | |
|
GB
64 posts |
Signals with slots from a level crossing are still controlled or semi depending on the layout.
Log in to reply |
| Re: Signal 5 30/12/2011 at 21:50 #26490 | |
|
clive
2738 posts |
" said:as far as im aware an automatic signal protecting a crossing, which is slotted to a crossing box (medge hall and finningley spring to mind) the signals are normally plated as controlled, although im not sure what class of signal they actually are.There are several under Peterborough's control. On the panel they are drawn and have no indicator lamp, but either have no "passable" plate at all or have a semi-auto plate symbol. Next to them is a white lamp labelled "123 OFF" (with the correct number, of course). The scheme diagram I have shows them with a semi-auto plate symbol and slotted by the relevant gate box. Log in to reply |
| Re: Signal 5 30/12/2011 at 22:07 #26493 | |
|
AndyG
1835 posts |
A signal protecting a LX can't be plated as an Auto as that could allow a driver to pass it at red on his/her own authority if he can't contact signaller etc. I came across a similar situation with an auto signal (with ER button) protecting a tunnel, the driver is not allowed to pass such a signal at red as (s)he is not permitted to enter the tunnel without permission from the signaller. (As it was while testing at TRE, I'm not at liberty to disclose the area/location)
I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Log in to reply |
| Re: Signal 5 30/12/2011 at 22:23 #26497 | |
GeoffM
6287 posts
|
" said:Hi,Being rather pedantic, it doesn't continually re-set the route, but the route remains set (as if in auto) until cancelled. My wife and I, several years ago, had the fortune of observing this behaviour at Exeter. Though I believe we have all such signals faithfully recreated in Exeter, I don't recall specifically why these signals are like so in real life. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Re: Signal 5 30/12/2011 at 22:38 #26499 | |
|
Stephen Fulcher
2026 posts
|
" said:A signal protecting a LX can't be plated as an Auto as that could allow a driver to pass it at red on his/her own authority if he can't contact signaller etc. I came across a similar situation with an auto signal (with ER button) protecting a tunnel, the driver is not allowed to pass such a signal at red as (s)he is not permitted to enter the tunnel without permission from the signaller. (As it was while testing at TRE, I'm not at liberty to disclose the area/location)I can think of a couple of signals that behave this way in real life. ME1210 at Aynho Park and ME1207 at Ardley protect Ardley Tunnel and are automatic signals. Marylebone IECC can replace them using the R roundel on the panel, however they are plated on the ground as though they are controlled, so drivers CANNOT pass them of their own authority. The signals protecting Brill Tunnel are the same as well. Log in to reply |
| Re: Signal 5 30/12/2011 at 22:53 #26500 | |
DriverCurran
683 posts
|
I was always told that under the old passing signals under your own authority that signals protecting the entrances to tunnels were NOT to be passed without the explicit permission of the controlling signalman Paul You have to get a red before you can get any other colour Log in to reply |
| Re: Signal 5 31/12/2011 at 00:19 #26513 | |
|
Firefly
521 posts |
I think you've just about covered everything here, however just to add my 2p worth:- Signal 5 is definitely not a semi-automatic. As has been stated, semi automatics are usually replaced to danger by the operation of a ground frame. This sort of signal is only something you tend to find on Western Region panels. It's a controlled signal that never disengages, therefore it operates just like an automatic whenever the route is set. I believe that it's the Western form of an R button. E' buttons cannot be relied upon to return an automatic signal to danger so the Western provided this type of signal which the signaller could revert to danger and rely upon whenever they wished. Their automatic signals only had emergency replacement facilities which were designed for emergencies only and could not be relied upon. FF Log in to reply |
| Re: Signal 5 31/12/2011 at 07:41 #26516 | |
|
ralphjwchadkirk
275 posts |
Being a bit more pedantic, drivers can now no longer pass (semi-)automatic signals on their own authority anymore unless at an IB or box closed signal. Quote: Part B sections 1, 2 and 3 of module S5 of the Rule Book have been amended by removing the arrangements for a driver to pass an automatic or semi-automatic signal at danger when unable to contact the signaller. This facility is very rarely used Log in to reply |
| Re: Signal 5 02/01/2012 at 14:02 #26646 | |
|
kbarber
1712 posts |
" said:You mean God's Wonderful Railway don't you.? I said what I meant old chap... I was brought up on the GN Main Line (first signal I ever worked was Biggleswade up fast home IIRC), bit of a comedown when all my professional signalling experience was on the LMR but at least part of it was at Marylebone, but I never did get round to that outfit west of Padd  (though there was a period when I was a working member on the SVR(Mind you, I always thought the 5VT frame was one of the best to work with; more solid than the Derby frame but much lighter & less clumsy than the Webb offering.) Log in to reply |