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Gloucester operations in 1990

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Gloucester operations in 1990 16/01/2012 at 18:29 #27488
WesternChampion
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I'm writing a timetable for the Gloucester sim, based on the passenger and freight WTTs for Summer 1990. The timetable for area PB covers all of the sim apart from Standish Junction to Kemble and I've got an area PA timetable as well for that bit. The freight timetable is for area PE, which seems to be a larger area than PB but also doesn't cover the Golden Valley line so I've had to estimate the times for the few freight trains taking that route.

My main query concerns the operation of loco-hauled trains reversing at Gloucester, of which there were still quite a few in 1990. Up until the mid 1980s, cross-country services stopping at Gloucester usually changed locos as part of the reversal, with the loco coming off the train being berthed in the loco spur off the end of platform 1. I've a feeling that this practice had ended by 1990 and I note that the reversals seem to have a minimum timing of 13 minutes. Even given this seemingly generous allowance, I've found it pretty difficult in testing to achieve this time. So I'm wondering, would it be prototypical to have a loco change rather than a run-round for these trains? Or could the drivers of the run-round locos reverse quicker than SimSig allows for the process?

My other question concerns the working of parcels trains 5B12 and 1A95. Judging by the timing loads, the first train detaches 6 vans and these are picked up by the second later in the day. There is no specific instruction in relation to the former train but the latter refers to running via the Up Main to Platform 3. I have therefore concluded that the stock is stabled in P3 between these workings and provided for a shunting loco to come across from the New Yard to move the stock from the Parcels platform (P4) to P3, which is the bay platform facing towards Severn Tunnel Junction but not used by passenger trains at that time since all Cardiff local workings were through from Birmingham via Worcester Shrub Hill.

I would be interested to know if anyone has information on the actual practice so I can match it in the timetable as closely as possible.

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Re: Gloucester operations in 1990 17/01/2012 at 22:05 #27586
moonraker
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I can't remember too many Engine changes on XC services at Gloucester even in the 80's. Usually the loco that brought the train in was run round to take it out again. There were some exceptions due to traction knowledge I suspect. Coming back from the motorshow at the NEC once on a relief service to Cardiff from New Street hauled by 40 107 it was swapped for a class 25 at Gloucester presumably because the relieving driver didn't sign 40's. But that's the only time I can remember an actual loco change. Peaks dominated these services for many years and they always stayed on the same train they came in with AFAIK.
Last edited: 17/01/2012 at 22:07 by moonraker
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Re: Gloucester operations in 1990 17/01/2012 at 22:26 #27587
Peter Bennet
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Latest information I have is "Loco hauled travel 1987" and a whiz through that throws up no mention of loco changes at Gloucester.

Peter

One of the great problems of our age is that we are governed by people who care more about feelings than they do about thoughts and ideas.
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Re: Gloucester operations in 1990 17/01/2012 at 22:43 #27588
58050
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It's very doubtful loco hauled services changed locos at Gloucester due to the traction used on Inter-City Cross Country services. By this time most loco-hauled Inter-City Cross Country services if not all were worked by Cl.47/6 or Cl.47/4s. The locos would have been attached at New Street, Birmingham if the train had come from the West Coast & if the train had come from York, Newcastle or edinburgh via the ECML then it would have been diagrammed for a Cl.47/6 with extended fuel tanks. If a loco change was required the most likely place for it to have happened would have been Bristol Temple Meads. Most of the ETH fitted Cl.47s at Gloucester would have belonged to the Parcels sector (RXLD). Cl.50s at Gloucester on passenger sevices would have belonged to the Network South East Western Region pool, diagrammed on Gloucester/Cheltenham Spa - Paddington services & then probably only one or two a day.
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Re: Gloucester operations in 1990 17/01/2012 at 22:47 #27589
pbinnersley
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" said:
I'm writing a timetable for the Gloucester sim, based on the passenger and freight WTTs for Summer 1990. {....snip....}

My main query concerns the operation of loco-hauled trains reversing at Gloucester, of which there were still quite a few in 1990. Up until the mid 1980s, cross-country services stopping at Gloucester usually changed locos as part of the reversal, with the loco coming off the train being berthed in the loco spur off the end of platform 1. I've a feeling that this practice had ended by 1990 and I note that the reversals seem to have a minimum timing of 13 minutes. Even given this seemingly generous allowance, I've found it pretty difficult in testing to achieve this time. So I'm wondering, would it be prototypical to have a loco change rather than a run-round for these trains? Or could the drivers of the run-round locos reverse quicker than SimSig allows for the process? {....snip....}

I would be interested to know if anyone has information on the actual practice so I can match it in the timetable as closely as possible.
In the 1980's I remember watching DMUs from Birmingham reverse at Kidderminster. The driver would transfer to the rear cab in the Up (from Birmingham) platform and the train would then "propel" to the signal box with the guard in the leading cab, The train could then head back to the Down (to Birmingham) as soon as the crossover had been reversed and the disc cleared. This saved a good 2-3 minutes of the driver changing ends. I suspect that something similar might have happened with the run-arounds at Gloucester with the Secondman (remember them) in the "rear" cab. This would save ~5 minutes per run-round.

All against the rules now a days of course!

Peter.

Last edited: 17/01/2012 at 22:49 by pbinnersley
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Re: Gloucester operations in 1990 18/01/2012 at 12:34 #27670
moonraker
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" said:
Cl.50s at Gloucester on passenger sevices would have belonged to the Network South East Western Region pool, diagrammed on Gloucester/Cheltenham Spa - Paddington services & then probably only one or two a day.

Yes by then 50's would have been seen on the Padd - Gloucester papers in the early hours. I was on one of 50 014's "Warspite" last sojourns before withdrawal in 1987 on the Gloucester papers from Swindon. We had a travelling porter job on nights to help unload at Stroud for the delivery chaps there before travelling back on the first passenger service from Gloucester at 05.31. Although you would just as often find a 47 on the papers. 50's were a mainstay on the Padd - Cheltenham's in the late 70's/early 80's until more new build HST's came on stream.

As regards to freight workings over the Golden Valley - The 2 Rover Car Panels trains (Swindon - Longbridge) went that way and came back same route until the mid 90's when they switched to the Oxford , Leamington Spa route with the work being taken by Bescot men if I remember rightly. There was also an afternoon Speedlink tripper from Gloucester New Yard to Cockleberry Yard which in its halcion days would often throw up exotic traction like a class 25 or pair of 20's (even a class 40 once :blink with the incoming loco(s) always working straight back same route with whatever was destined for the North from Swindon. The other notable working was a class 9 partially fitted engineers from Reading to Gloucester which always ran at night. Depending on what was conveyed it could run as a Class 6,7,8 or 9. Quite often it dropped off traffic at Swindon Transfer and picked up on the down trip and the same in Cockleberry on the return in the early hours when I still a shunter there. Other than that it was the occasional military trip to or from Ashchurch which in those days would have been a fairly occasional occurance.

Last edited: 18/01/2012 at 16:27 by moonraker
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Re: Gloucester operations in 1990 18/01/2012 at 16:12 #27683
moonraker
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" said:

In the 1980's I remember watching DMUs from Birmingham reverse at Kidderminster. The driver would transfer to the rear cab in the Up (from Birmingham) platform and the train would then "propel" to the signal box with the guard in the leading cab, The train could then head back to the Down (to Birmingham) as soon as the crossover had been reversed and the disc cleared. This saved a good 2-3 minutes of the driver changing ends. I suspect that something similar might have happened with the run-arounds at Gloucester with the Secondman (remember them) in the "rear" cab. This would save ~5 minutes per run-round.

All against the rules now a days of course!

Peter.
You might be surprised that this practice went on well in to Privatisation days. Banbury was one place where an incoming DMU from Oxford would propel all the way on the up road through the station to gain access to the bay to await departure time back to Oxford. And when I signed Stratford on Avon at Oxford we used to propel out of Platform 1 with the guard in the rear cab to go in to either Platform 2 or 3 to allow a Centro service access to platform 1 with an earlier departure time.

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Re: Gloucester operations in 1990 18/01/2012 at 16:37 #27684
WesternChampion
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Thanks for all the memories, everyone. I'll leave it that all trains reversing at Gloucester will run round (and probably accumulate a few minutes delay in the process).

From my recollection of the early to mid 80s when Peaks were still the mainstay of the NE-SW route, there were often engine changes at Gloucester with the loco stabling in the loco spur awaiting its next turn of duty. I think Paddington to Cheltenham services ran round, however.

I've got a 1980 timetable that might feature in due course!

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Re: Gloucester operations in 1990 18/01/2012 at 17:51 #27696
58050
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Western Champion you are correct in the sense that there were alot more loco changes at Gloucester when the 'Peaks' were in traffic. However 'Peaks' were banned from running past Bristol Temple Meads after 1985. I've got a photo of 45036 at Bristol Temple Meads working the Bescot - Exeter Riverside empty China Clay tanks from Cliffe Vale in September 1985. Once the Cl.45s & Cl.46s were withdrawn from the NE/SW diagrams in favour of Cl.47s the majority of loco changes if not all ceased at Gloucester from then on. The Gloucester 1989 timetable in the download section was originally created by John(Meld) & myself & if memo0ry serves me correctly there aren't any loco hauled services which change locos at Gloucester by this time.
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Re: Gloucester operations in 1990 18/01/2012 at 19:07 #27711
moonraker
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Didn't know about the Peak ban from '85 West of Bristol Pascal that's interesting. Bath Road had a small allocation of 46's for the NE/SW workings if I remember rightly as did Laira. Although the 46's were probably all gone by the the time of Western Champ's TT
Last edited: 18/01/2012 at 19:08 by moonraker
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Re: Gloucester operations in 1990 18/01/2012 at 19:27 #27715
58050
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Well it was certainly in place by 1985, probably imposed before then. I started on the footplate as a second man at St. Pancras in 1985 & by then the only Cl.46 in traffic was 97403 'Ixion' which belonged to Derby RTC as I only ever went on it once during my time on the footplate. I returned from a weeks haulage bashing in Scotland in September 1985 whilst Crewe station was being re-modeled. I returned to Bristol Temple Meads from Glasgow Central on the Saturday night sleeper. The train was hauled by a pair of Cl.47s in tandem to Birmingham New Street where they came off & a Cl.45/1 was attached to the front at New Street & hauled us to Bristol Temple Meads & then returned to Waterloo via Salisbury behind a Cl.33, but that's a story for another day. AFAIK the reason for the ban was due to one de-railing at Weston Super Mare or Taunton. I'd have to look it up for further details.
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Re: Gloucester operations in 1990 18/01/2012 at 20:05 #27721
moonraker
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Now you mention it yes I seem to recall an incident where a Peak derailed somewhere down West. When I started on the platform at Swindon in 1987 they could still be seen. They were taking a lot of stuff for scrap due to the works closing here that year. After that they gradually disappeared. I know a regular working was the Bristol - Derby TPO and return which was booked a Peak I think.
Last edited: 18/01/2012 at 20:13 by moonraker
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