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| Why do some signals have three different names? 21/01/2012 at 11:55 #27857 | |
maxand
1637 posts |
In the Royston sim, for example, R-clicking 246 displays its name as K246. However, the signalling diagram v2.102 refers to it as just 246. The Royston Route Tables refers to it as LK246. Why can't a consistent nomenclature be adopted for something as simple and important as a signal number? Log in to reply |
| Re: Why do some signals have three different names? 21/01/2012 at 12:04 #27859 | |
Steamer
3923 posts |
K246 and LK246 are separate signals- K246 is on the down main near the loop, LK246 is the signal marked LOS. The route tables refer to both signals. The standard is: Signals controlled by the box the simulation is named after (e.g. Exeter) will not have their prefix code shown, signals controlled by other signal boxes (e.g. Exmouth Junction) will have their prefix code shown. The Signal Number Plan for Royston is old, and the signal may well have been called just '246' in the old version. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Last edited: 21/01/2012 at 12:04 by Steamer Log in to reply |
| Re: Why do some signals have three different names? 21/01/2012 at 12:10 #27860 | |
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AndyG
1835 posts |
" said:The Signal Number Plan for Royston is old, and the signal may well have been called just '246' in the old version.I suspect that as Postal was hand-crafting those signal nos diagrams, it eased the process by just showing the actual number; after all, the digits are the important bit, and they are a guide, not a definitive list. I think most people were appreciative of the work John put into these diagrams. I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Last edited: 21/01/2012 at 12:11 by AndyG Log in to reply |
| Re: Why do some signals have three different names? 21/01/2012 at 12:29 #27861 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Thanks for explaining. Now you mention it, it brings back painful memories of my introduction to SimSig via Royston, mistaking the LOS signal for K246 simply because there's no LK246 marked on the PDF signal map: Thankfully Royston isn't a big sim so it didn't take too much clicking before I realized that LOS and LK246 were one and the same. I wonder how many other newbies went through this. I admit I forgot this when I started this thread. But hang on. Steamer said: Quote: The standard is: Signals controlled by the box the simulation is named after (e.g. Exeter) will not have their prefix code shown, signals controlled by other signal boxes (e.g. Exmouth Junction) will have their prefix code shown. The Signal Number Plan for Royston is old, and the signal may well have been called just '246' in the old version. So if that's the case, why aren't LK246 and K246 titled L246 and 246 when you right-click them? Of course, seeing that this is just a fictional box, that might explain it. Last edited: 21/01/2012 at 12:45 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: Why do some signals have three different names? 21/01/2012 at 12:43 #27862 | |
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Steamer
3923 posts |
" said:Of course, seeing that this is just a fictional box, that might explain it. Right in one! This is also true for Simulations like CScot, which cover an 'area' rather than a particular box's area of control. I should say that the 'standard' I referred to is how the numbers are displayed in each signal's menu. In the Signal Number Plans that I have produced, the number shown is a copy of that shown in the menu. I don't know what John did for his. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
| Re: Why do some signals have three different names? 21/01/2012 at 12:44 #27863 | |
postal
5190 posts |
The signal numbers shown on any of the diagrams I put up are those obtained by right clicking on the relevant signal on the SimSig view and manually transcribed. It is too far gone in the mists of time now, but if the version of Royston I used as the base data showed 246 on right clicking, that is what I transcribed - if it had shown K246, then likewise. Of course that is all subject to the inadvertent typos which I am bound to have made. If anything has changed since I created any of the diagrams I added to the Wiki, the change will not be reflected in the published diagrams as I have not updated anything since they were first posted. If anyone wants to put any new diagrams up or create new versions where sims have changed, please feel free to add your contribution and delete the out of date information. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Re: Why do some signals have three different names? 21/01/2012 at 12:52 #27864 | |
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AndyG
1835 posts |
Royston is not fictional, it's a panel on KX in reality. Originally with paged sims limited to 6 views, Royston had to be omitted from KX and so Clive built Royston as a 'chain-on' to KX, and subsequently included it in his Cambridge sim. If the sims were being done from scratch now, I'm sure Royston would be in KX and Cambridge would be bereft of it (and we wouldn't have a nice little trainer sim either), but would be a bit too much pain to rework as such now. Oh, and Royston does chain to KX OK, I have a Royston 1985 TT that is compatible with KX 1985. I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Log in to reply |
| Re: Why do some signals have three different names? 21/01/2012 at 12:52 #27865 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
I was playing the very latest version of Royston (2.5) and the K prefixes are still there. Now, I remember whoever upgraded Royston (Clive, I think it was) saying little was changed except for some cosmetic upgrades, so I wonder (a) where this K prefix comes from, and (b) if the sim were to be upgraded again, should the K prefix be removed, if we pretend it's a local box? (added) Oh, I get it, thanks to AndyG's last post. K = King's Cross? Last edited: 21/01/2012 at 12:54 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: Why do some signals have three different names? 21/01/2012 at 12:54 #27866 | |
Peter Bennet
5360 posts |
Seems to vary by box what is physically on the panel. For example Cowlairs and Dundee (i've just made a random check) do have full prefix letters but others, for example Polmont, exclude the box ID but include any interlocking ID. So in Polmont you have P516 shown as 516 but PB519 is B519. I always give the signals the full ID. Just to add further background, for SimSig programming object purposes a signal is also prefixed by S so SPB519 is the SimSIg name for PB519- generally you will not come across that, save I think the f11 menu does include the S (and P/T for Point/TC and so on). Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Why do some signals have three different names? 21/01/2012 at 13:00 #27868 | |
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Peter Bennet
5360 posts |
Probably should add that "on the ground" the signal will be plated with the full ID. There is a list of Signal Box IDs here. Also that, as I indicated above, some boxes have separate IDs for each interlocking area (see Edinburgh and Cowlairs) many don't. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Why do some signals have three different names? 21/01/2012 at 15:56 #27895 | |
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Firefly
521 posts |
Will also add the in the real world LOS's never used to have identity numbers they were just identified as the Up Main / Down Main (insert line name) LOS. Therefore when the developer created Roysten they had to give the LOS an identity and they chose to call it LK246 due to its proximity to K246 signal.
Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Why do some signals have three different names? 21/01/2012 at 15:59 #27897 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2026 posts |
Nowadays they tend to be given a number which fits in with the ground signals in the area, for example the Down Main LOS at Fenny Compton is numbered OL1180, and has no mention of being a limit of shunt anywhere on the diagrams or the ground.
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| Re: Why do some signals have three different names? 22/01/2012 at 11:24 #27935 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Peter Bennet wrote: Quote: There is a list of Signal Box IDs here. Thanks Peter, another useful reference. However, I notice it still seems rather arbitrary. For example, when I checked "K" to see whether the K in K246 at Royston stood for Kings Cross, I found it was also referenced as KX (also KC in 1976). Furthermore, K alone is used as a prefix for Keighley, Kendall Green, Kildwick, etc., etc. Is this because the geographic context in which it is used precludes any ambiguity, or is there some more defining rule? Log in to reply |
| Re: Why do some signals have three different names? 22/01/2012 at 11:36 #27940 | |
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Steamer
3923 posts |
maxand said:Is this because the geographic context in which it is used precludes any ambiguity, or is there some more defining rule? It's partly to do with that (for example, CN is both Crediton, which is near Exeter in the south west, and Crow Nest Junction, which is in the north west near Manchester), and also because there are only 676 combinations of letters available, and there certainly used to be more than that many boxes- not to mention those that have more than one code. Added to the fact that the letters normally bear some resembelance to the name of the box, there aren't a lot of places where the letters Q, X and Z can be used. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
| Re: Why do some signals have three different names? 22/01/2012 at 11:42 #27944 | |
headshot119
4869 posts |
Just look in that list of how many boxes used the "CN" prefix. To me that would mean Croess Newydd, but it doesn't in all cases. " said: Nowadays they tend to be given a number which fits in with the ground signals in the area, for example the Down Main LOS at Fenny Compton is numbered OL1180, and has no mention of being a limit of shunt anywhere on the diagrams or the ground.Indeed the new LOS in platform one at Wrexham General is CN1XXX I can't remember the exact number, no mention on the panel of it being an LOS. "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Last edited: 22/01/2012 at 11:43 by headshot119 Log in to reply |
| Re: Why do some signals have three different names? 22/01/2012 at 11:43 #27946 | |
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Peter Bennet
5360 posts |
Yes Geographically it does not matter too much, as long as it's obvious. Looking at it the references to the various codes for Kings Cross I think relates to different eras and different boxes. At one time Kings Cross box simply contolled the station passing to Belle Isle (not apparently listed), then probably Holloway and on to Finsbury Park box. Then in the mid- '70s the whole thing was resignalled gradually to what we have now controlled from a different Kings Cross box. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Last edited: 22/01/2012 at 11:44 by Peter Bennet Log in to reply |
| Re: Why do some signals have three different names? 22/01/2012 at 12:33 #27949 | |
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mfcooper
707 posts |
Stratford North London Line (NLL) signal box had an 'S' prefix (before the resignalling that closed it), as did South Tottenham signal box. These boxes did not fringe to one another, so there should have been no ambiguity. However, there was a story involving a freight train driver... He stopped at one of South Tottenham's signals to speak to the signaller from the Signal Post Telephone. After the conversation, he continued along the line, eventually passing South Tottenham box. He promptly stopped again and shouted out the window to the signaller the same message as the previous phone conversation. The signaller pointed out they had already had this conversation over the phone, to which the driver replied "Oh, I though that was a Stratford (NLL) signal!" No harm done, but shows that boxes which are relatively close together (they are only separated by the Brimsdown workstation at Liverpool Street IECC) are possible a bit too close to share the same signal prefix. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Josie |
| Re: Why do some signals have three different names? 22/01/2012 at 17:54 #27971 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2026 posts |
Nowadays, where signals are numbered after the line rather than the box the prefixes are often shared between boxes. For example "CN" for the Coventry to Nuneaton line is used consecutively for signals controlled by both Rugby SCC and West Midlands Signalling Centre on the same line. The same also applies to "RC" between Rugby and Coventry. Log in to reply |
| Re: Why do some signals have three different names? 22/01/2012 at 21:32 #28005 | |
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clive
2738 posts |
" said:The Signal Number Plan for Royston is old, and the signal may well have been called just '246' in the old version.The first release of Royston was written as a stand-alone sim. Since it's basically an extension of King's Cross, the King's Cross signals were given a plain number and the Cambridge ones had a C prefix (I don't know why I did that offhand; Cambridge signals are prefixed CA). At some point when I was writing or shortly after I wrote Cambridge, I organized the source code so that the two sims use common code where possible (e.g. they have the same routeing tables for these signals). That meant that the Royston sim became essentially a subset of the Cambridge one, so that meant changing the Cambridge signals to have no prefix and the King's Cross ones to have their real K prefix. The LOS signal became LK246 at the same time because Cambridge has several such; before then it was just "LOS". Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Steamer, maxand |
| Re: Why do some signals have three different names? 22/01/2012 at 21:33 #28006 | |
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clive
2738 posts |
" said:Will also add the in the real world LOS's never used to have identity numbers they were just identified as the Up Main / Down Main (insert line name) LOS.The first time I saw a numbered one was at Finsbury Park, where one was added on the Down Fast (wrong direction) just south of the station. It had a number even though it was a double red (back when shunts were still red+white). Log in to reply |
| Re: Why do some signals have three different names? 22/01/2012 at 21:36 #28007 | |
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clive
2738 posts |
" said:For example, when I checked "K" to see whether the K in K246 at Royston stood for Kings Cross, I found it was also referenced as KX (also KC in 1976).I've only ever seen King's Cross signals with a simple K prefix. Quote: Furthermore, K alone is used as a prefix for Keighley, Kendall Green, Kildwick, etc., etc.Peterborough has two Ks fringing it: King's Cross and King's Dyke, both of whose signals are plated K. There's also a near miss: the other two fringes are Grantham and Uffington, but the next box after the latter is Ketton, also just plated K. Log in to reply |
| Re: Why do some signals have three different names? 22/01/2012 at 21:40 #28009 | |
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clive
2738 posts |
One tale about identical identifiers. Shortly after Hatfield I caught the sleeper down from Glasgow. I woke at about 8am to find the train still moving. I opened the blind and looked out of the window - I didn't recognise the industrial-ish landscape but after a minute or so saw a signal plated WN. Knowing that was Willesden and therefore we must be approaching Euston, I quickly got dressed and packed. Then I looked out again to see green fields! I wandered down to the lounge car, to discover we were running extremely late - WN is also Warrington/Wigan! We finally arrived just after 13:00. Log in to reply |