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| London Underground Met Line 08/02/2012 at 09:27 #29067 | |
andyb0607
260 posts |
Been working in Harrow-on-the-Hill since Christmas and using the met line every day. Any one out there got any idea how the All Stations, Fast and Semi-Fast trains actually work? To me it seems like a case of "make it up as you go along!" Take this morning for instance. Got of the Jubilee line at Finchley Road and there was an Uxbridge (All Stations) service just pulling in. The board showed an Uxbridge Semi-Fast, 1 minute behind it. So, I thought I may as well wait for that! Seemed to work well to start with. Caught up with the All Stations at Wembley Park. Both left together. We obviously, bypassed Preston Road and Northwick Park and then had to wait for about 4 minutes whilst the All Stations train was platformed first! Timetable structure doesn't seem to be there! I get to Finchley Road at virtually the same time every day. The met line board never seems to show the same destinations twice. Yesterday it was Amersham Fast, then an Uxbridge, Harrow and Chesham service. Today at the same time it was an Uxbridge All Stations, Uxbridge Semi-Fast, then a Watford service. Glad I'm only going to Harrow and can take any train. I assume there is a WTT for the line in some shape or form. Just never been able to figure it out! Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Bobby |
| Re: London Underground Met Line 08/02/2012 at 23:07 #29166 | |
metcontrol
217 posts |
We do indeed operate a Working Timetable. The off-peak pattern of service is as follows: Uxbridge-Baker Street or Aldgate calling all stations Chesham/Amersham to Aldgate calling all stations Watford-Baker Street calling all stations During the AM peak, southbound services from Chesham/Amersham run fast between Moor Park and Harrow, and certain trains run fast from here to Finchley Road. There is a sprinkling of other "semi-fast" services which run fast between Harrow and Wembley / Finchley Road. During the PM peak, northbound services towards Chesham/Amersham run fast between Wembley and Harrow, and between Harrow and Moor Park. Certain Watford trains also run fast between Wembley and Harrow. However... When late running is experienced, we may divert certain trains via the fast lines to regain time - the Uxbridge Semi-fast service is a classic move to recover a small amount of late running. These alterations will generally be seen at the tail ends of the peak. The scenario you witnessed was very likely a result of a Baker Street-Uxbridge service running ahead of an Aldgate-Uxbridge service, with the ex-Aldgate train booked to arrive at Uxbridge first. By diverting via the fast, the ex-Aldgate train can overtake, regain time, and arrive at Uxbridge in the correct order. Log in to reply |
| Re: London Underground Met Line 08/02/2012 at 23:08 #29167 | |
jc92
3631 posts |
a copy of all current LU WTTs can be requested for free under the freedom of information act if you contact LU directly
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Re: London Underground Met Line 09/02/2012 at 16:35 #29212 | |
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metcontrol
217 posts |
And allow me just to mention, that whilst that may be the case, it is not "free" for us to produce and post them. The more FOI requests of this sort, the more the costs will need to be recouped, and there's only one realistic way to do this and that is by increasing fares even more.
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| Re: London Underground Met Line 09/02/2012 at 16:51 #29213 | |
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Zoe
251 posts |
" said:certain trains run fast from here to Finchley Road. There is a sprinkling of other "semi-fast" services which run fast between Harrow and Wembley / Finchley Road. I thought the plan was for everything to stop at Wembley Park. It's strange that the northbound fast peak services stop at Wembley Park but the southbound fast peak services do not. Log in to reply |
| Re: London Underground Met Line 09/02/2012 at 18:03 #29216 | |
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alan_s
152 posts |
" said:And allow me just to mention, that whilst that may be the case, it is not "free" for us to produce and post them.Can you post the information here then please to save a flood of requests ? Log in to reply |
| Re: London Underground Met Line 09/02/2012 at 19:56 #29222 | |
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Josie
310 posts |
" said:" said:Anyone making any sort of Freedom of Information request should seriously consider doing it through WhatDoTheyKnow.com, an excellent website which makes the process simpler and also publishes responses etc. so that others can view them - which (amongst other benefits) means that FOI officers don't get swamped with the same request lots of times.And allow me just to mention, that whilst that may be the case, it is not "free" for us to produce and post them.Can you post the information here then please to save a flood of requests ? Log in to reply |
| Re: London Underground Met Line 09/02/2012 at 20:55 #29226 | |
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Sacro
1171 posts |
" said:And allow me just to mention, that whilst that may be the case, it is not "free" for us to produce and post them. The more FOI requests of this sort, the more the costs will need to be recouped, and there's only one realistic way to do this and that is by increasing fares even more.Or you could release them in a digital format... Log in to reply |
| Re: London Underground Met Line 09/02/2012 at 21:46 #29230 | |
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guidomcc
246 posts |
i think there is some law that requires them to be in hardcopy (or at least a CD..) i remember reading that one of the problems Facebook is facing over here is people FOI-ing themselves and Facebook having to send loads of disks across the pond XD Log in to reply |
| Re: London Underground Met Line 09/02/2012 at 21:59 #29231 | |
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ralphjwchadkirk
275 posts |
" said:i think there is some law that requires them to be in hardcopy (or at least a CD..) Facebook is a private company. You cannot FOI a private company. However, the DPA allows you to request data held about you by anyone. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: guidomcc |
| Re: London Underground Met Line 09/02/2012 at 22:10 #29232 | |
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alan_s
152 posts |
" said:i think there is some law that requires them to be in hardcopy (or at least a CD..)I think you'll find that's Subject Access, rather than FOI. FOI is only about non-personal data held by public bodies, Subject Access is getting hold of your personal data under the Data Protection Act, for which there is a fee not to exceed £10. (unless its gone up recently!) Log in to reply |
| Re: London Underground Met Line 09/02/2012 at 22:17 #29233 | |
Peter Bennet
5363 posts |
" said:i think there is some law that requires them to be in hardcopy (or at least a CD..)No, the law just requires the information to be released, there is no requirement to actually issue a copy of any document in any format. You can request a format and mode of delivery but if it not possible/practical to release in that format you'll get it in whatever format is possible. If you look at the WhatDoTheyKnow listing you will see that someone has asked the question about cost and formats. Apparently TFL's printing system is to old to be compatible with any electronic format and the cost of scanning -v- printing and posting is given. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Last edited: 09/02/2012 at 22:18 by Peter Bennet Log in to reply |
| Re: London Underground Met Line 10/02/2012 at 00:56 #29235 | |
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UKTrainMan
1803 posts |
Or you offer to gift them a scanner (as linked to from here).
Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for. Log in to reply |
| Re: London Underground Met Line 10/02/2012 at 06:46 #29240 | |
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Peter Bennet
5363 posts |
Just been reading some of the "hints and tips" from Tim's link and the points about addresses and even pseudonyms. Seems ironic that people demanding information are reluctant to provide certain information themselves. This is what really annoys me about the "my rights" brigade, there is a remarkable lack of reciprocity in the process - take Mr wikleaks as a prime example of the hypocrisy around the whole issue. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Re: London Underground Met Line 11/02/2012 at 20:39 #29303 | |
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metcontrol
217 posts |
As Peter points out, the LUL timetabling system is far too ancient to be directly linked to provide digital downloads. I recently had to review a forthcoming Met timetable, and the draft was printed on A3-size sheets (the old stripy green ones with perforated edges) by a dot-matrix printer! I cannot supply any timetable here in public without the consent of my employer. Our timetables are all marked "Private, for staff use only" and to reproduce them here would mean I may not be able to afford my bills next month  It is good to see that my employer now supplies such information, given that they never used to. However, my point has been that it does mean someone is now employed to deal with such requests - another wage on the wage bill. The money has to come from somewhere. And the other side-effect is that you do get those who take one look at the timetable and try to do mine and my colleagues jobs for us. Trust me, there's more to it than simply reading the timetable. Sorry, us here already know that don't we... 
Log in to reply The following user said thank you: ExDistrictDriver |
| Re: London Underground Met Line 03/03/2012 at 14:42 #30300 | |
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Jan
892 posts |
" said:As Peter points out, the LUL timetabling system is far too ancient to be directly linked to provide digital downloads.I don't know how much effort had to be put into this, and when they've made the necessary changes, but apparently it is possible now: http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/wtts_for_london_underground_line http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/london_underground_timetables But just to show that you can't please everybody, the guy who made the request contained in the second link is now complaining that he would have preferred the printed version over the digital one. Two million people attempt to use Birmingham's magnificent rail network every year, with just over a million of them managing to get further than Smethwick. Log in to reply |
| Re: London Underground Met Line 03/03/2012 at 16:08 #30301 | |
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Peter Bennet
5363 posts |
I think the first one is "Ipswich" from this forum. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Re: London Underground Met Line 03/03/2012 at 16:27 #30302 | |
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metcontrol
217 posts |
There are a handful that have been compiled into PDF files - but only to assist internally in the company. As far as I understand it though, we're not simply "saving as" and off you go. We really are talking late 1970s, early 1980s "technology." You'll notice the requester of the information has only a handful of lines as far as I can see - these are either the only ones available in pdf, or the only ones the company was willing to give out. I am a little surprised that fully up-to-date and valid timetables have been obtained (I did think we were talking about out-of-date timetables). I always thought my company respected its own policies of security to its assets and staff. Certain aspects of our operations were always kept hidden in order that those who would abuse such information were unable to do so. Oh well, another sign of progress I suppose. Log in to reply |
| Re: London Underground Met Line 03/03/2012 at 17:09 #30305 | |
postal
5195 posts |
" said:You'll notice the requester of the information has only a handful of lines as far as I can see - these are either the only ones available in pdf, or the only ones the company was willing to give out.I think if you scroll down the page given in the link, you can find another e-mail from TfL with the other lines. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Re: London Underground Met Line 03/03/2012 at 19:58 #30313 | |
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Stanyon
141 posts |
here is the met line http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/104512/response/257325/attach/html/5/Met331.pdf.html Log in to reply |
| Re: London Underground Met Line 03/03/2012 at 23:43 #30324 | |
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metcontrol
217 posts |
Yes, I stand corrected and have now noticed that after seeing a similar thread on another forum. Ironically, I viewed the page, along with a couple of other colleagues, at work. It is still slightly disconcerting that we were able to look at more or less every current/up-to-date working timetable for any line. We don't even hold copies of other line's timetables in our office. Having been on night shift this week, and having managed a number of events (which I won't go into) I would sincerely hope that the information people can now obtain through these timetables did not contribute to the incidents in question. Knowing where trains end up and for how long, and knowing times of operation of certain services are handy things to know for those with less than above-board intentions... Log in to reply |
| Re: London Underground Met Line 04/03/2012 at 01:55 #30327 | |
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lpeters
160 posts |
That is one of the downsides to the FOI act. Because TfL and by extension, London Underground, is a public company; they, by law, have to provide any information to someone who requests it under the FOI unless it is impossible to do so (info does not exist) or it would endanger national security to do so.
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| Re: London Underground Met Line 04/03/2012 at 09:44 #30333 | |
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Josie
310 posts |
" said:That is one of the downsides to the FOI act. Because TfL and by extension, London Underground, is a public company; they, by law, have to provide any information to someone who requests it under the FOI unless it is impossible to do so (info does not exist) or it would endanger national security to do so.Genuine question: why is that a downside? Log in to reply |
| Re: London Underground Met Line 04/03/2012 at 18:42 #30347 | |
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lpeters
160 posts |
Because they have to continually keep producing it. They could obviously cut costs by just releasing it publically, but they understandably, don't want it to be widely circulated. Also, because they couldn't prove it would breach national security laws, the same reasons that metcontrol detailed above. Log in to reply |
| Re: London Underground Met Line 04/03/2012 at 19:17 #30349 | |
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Peter Bennet
5363 posts |
" said:Because they have to continually keep producing it. They could obviously cut costs by just releasing it publically, but they understandably, don't want it to be widely circulated.Given that they have uploaded it to that [public] site then the Exemtion under FOI2000, Section 21 "Information accessible to applicant by other means" could be claimed; they then just have to provide the URL to that site to any future enquires until a timetable changes. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |