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| Copy telephone call to Clipboard 16/02/2012 at 04:51 #29538 | |
maxand
1637 posts |
I think it would be handy to have a Copy button at the bottom of the Answer call from train xxxx window, which when clicked copies the whole message received by me to the Windows Clipboard for pasting into a sticky note. Although it is possible to do this manually now by highlighting and copying the text, unless you remember to do this, the message text is gone forever. It's all too easy to forget to save, click an acknowledgment and lose the message. Last edited: 16/02/2012 at 05:44 by maxand Reason: added emphasis to "received by me" Log in to reply |
| Re: Copy telephone call to Clipboard 16/02/2012 at 05:17 #29540 | |
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Aurora
183 posts |
Doesn't it show up in your messages window?
Nil. Log in to reply |
| Re: Copy telephone call to Clipboard 16/02/2012 at 05:39 #29542 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Quote:Doesn't it show up in your messages window? Only my reply, which is only half the story. Or if any part of the message shows up, it's usually greatly abbreviated. Maybe I should have been clearer in my original post. I was thinking of the situation where a driver phones in to say the train's developed a fault and is due to depart at a delayed time. What I'm most interested in is the delayed time of departure, but if I forget to copy it down somewhere, it seems there's no way to retrieve it afterwards. As you say, no need to copy my answer - I know what I replied and it's also in the Messages window. Last edited: 16/02/2012 at 06:02 by maxand Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Backup |
| Re: Copy telephone call to Clipboard 16/02/2012 at 06:49 #29545 | |
Peter Bennet
5360 posts |
Added to developers "wish list". Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Copy telephone call to Clipboard 16/02/2012 at 09:40 #29551 | |
postal
5190 posts |
" said:I was thinking of the situation where a driver phones in to say the train's developed a fault and is due to depart at a delayed time. What I'm most interested in is the delayed time of departure, but if I forget to copy it down somewhere, it seems there's no way to retrieve it afterwards.Can't vouch for all sims, but on a lot of them the substance of that sort of incoming message is shown on the Incident Report (F7) - which leads to the curse - click - click scenario when you realise you have shut down the telephone message without taking in the content properly. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Re: Copy telephone call to Clipboard 16/02/2012 at 09:52 #29553 | |
jc92
3630 posts |
drop a sticky note next to it with "del: 14:25" or similar to remind you
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Copy telephone call to Clipboard 16/02/2012 at 11:37 #29561 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Quote:drop a sticky note next to it with "del: 14:25" or similar to remind you I get it - del stands for "delayed". Thanks, that's what I used to do (till I wrote a macro to copy it for me). Having a Copy button eliminates typing and typos. Personally, I hate typing colons. :) The real-life equivalent would be something like an old-fashioned teleprinter. Do they use them in signal boxes? Air Traffic Control used to (and probably still do) to print out latest weather advisories, etc. Last edited: 16/02/2012 at 11:41 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: Copy telephone call to Clipboard 16/02/2012 at 12:12 #29563 | |
lazzer
605 posts |
Another note on how this is handled in real life (and I've had this loads of times myself). If a train is going to be delayed leaving a station then the driver/guard will tell the platform staff. He will then call the signaller and tell him he will be late leaving. This is simulated by you receiving the phone call you mentioned. What the signaller SHOULD then do is ask the driver if he wants the signal ahead of him replaced to danger (assuming it is off), and then he should tell the driver to call him when the train is ready to depart. The signaller then attends to other matters until he gets the call from the driver to say the train is ready to go. The way I usually deal with this in Simsig is to leave the train sat there and not worry about it until the driver calls me to let me know he's ready to go. I don't worry about sticky notes to remind me - it just sits in the back of my mind. Also, I always replace the signal to danger if the option is given to me - some trains end up sat there for ages with a route set for them which requires cancelling later, earning you a penalty and a call from a bemused driver. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Copy telephone call to Clipboard 16/02/2012 at 13:54 #29578 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
lazzer: Quote: What the signaller SHOULD then do is ask the driver if he wants the signal ahead of him replaced to danger (assuming it is off) Seems strange that the driver, not the signaller, is the one who is given the choice. What if the driver doesn't want the signal replaced but the signaller knows he can use the track ahead to set routes for other trains to bypass the stalled train if the signal is replaced? Last edited: 16/02/2012 at 13:55 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: Copy telephone call to Clipboard 16/02/2012 at 14:17 #29582 | |
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lazzer
605 posts |
" said:lazzer: The driver is always given the choice, because the driver should always be told if a signal is going to be replaced ahead of him IF HE IS IN A POSITION TO BE TOLD. If the signaller is giving the driver a choice, then it means that the signaller is prepared, and able, to work around the problem if the driver says he doesn't want the signal put back to danger. However, if the driver says that the train will be there for some considerable time, then the signaller will tell the driver that the signal is going back on him, whether he likes it or not. I suppose the only exception to this is when the track ahead of the signal in question is plain line, and it makes no operational difference. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Copy telephone call to Clipboard 16/02/2012 at 15:07 #29583 | |
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ralphjwchadkirk
275 posts |
" said:lazzer: The signaller does not need to ask the driver, and the driver does not need to give permission. The only requirement is that the signaller make the driver aware of the change of aspect, or ensure that there is no driver on the train. GSR 4.5.1.2: Quote: Except in an emergency, if you have cleared a signal for a train to start you must not replace it to danger before the train starts, until you have made sure that the driver is aware that you are going to do so, or you have made sure the train does not have a driver. Log in to reply |
| Re: Copy telephone call to Clipboard 16/02/2012 at 16:20 #29584 | |
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lazzer
605 posts |
I think it's more of a common courtesy that the signaller asks/tells the driver before he does it, instead of just doing it.
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| Re: Copy telephone call to Clipboard 16/02/2012 at 16:37 #29586 | |
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postal
5190 posts |
" said:GSR 4.5.1.2:It would be helpful if we could have something similar in SimSig. Due to fat finger syndrome, I occasionally manage to set the route from the wrong platform where a train is taking a layover rather than from the platform where the train is waiting. I then have to take the pain of a penalty for an ACoA when I put the road back and then let the correct train get away. Would it be possible in those circumstances to have the facility to place a telephone call and after a suitable delay have permission to put the road back without incurring a penalty (although you would still suffer from incurring a delay to the due train while the messages were relayed and then the incorrect route timed out). “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Copy telephone call to Clipboard 16/02/2012 at 17:32 #29589 | |
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Josie
310 posts |
We've discussed this recently - and it's been raised in the past as well. I still think it's a good idea 
Log in to reply The following users said thank you: maxand, postal |
| Re: Copy telephone call to Clipboard 16/02/2012 at 17:59 #29591 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2026 posts |
What I tend to do if I have a delayed train phone in is as follows. I always put the signal back to danger if it is possible to do so as I find it better to keep my options open, even if there is a negligible delay and nothing around I find it easier to do the same thing every time, and also in my experience that is what Signallers do in reality. I tend to place a reminder on the signal concerned so that I remember not to clear the signal again until the driver phones up. Similarly, if a driver phones up to say he is delayed when the signal is at red in front of him, I would cancel any route set from that signal if there was one, and apply the reminder. Log in to reply |
| Re: Copy telephone call to Clipboard 16/02/2012 at 22:53 #29607 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
I agree with postal that having some opportunity to initiate contact with the driver to notify him of accidental replacement of his signal, or to inform him that this needs to happen, is desirable out of courtesy, more realistic, and would be a welcome addition to SimSig in the future. However, right now SimSig is a cut-down version of a full training sim, so if nothing else, it forces us to look further ahead to prevent this situation from arising in the first place. I.e., it deliberately takes the worst case scenario by not intervening to allow discussion between driver and signaller. Time and again I've incurred an ACOA when I should have given myself more time to see which trains were approaching from where, and reassigned my priorities so it wasn't necessary to cancel a route in front of a driver to prevent holding everything else up. Of course, what postal refers to is a different situation, where one accidentally cancels the wrong route, being tired or in a hurry. Again, SimSig applies the worst-case scenario here, teaching us the hard way with no opportunity to retract, which is good as it makes us look before we leap. Since the regs say signaller doesn't contact driver, driver has to initiate call, SimSig's ACOA interpretation (which I gather is a SimSig-specific term) obeys this faithfully, IMO. --- In the case of a driver calling in to report a delay, the only fault I can find with the way SimSig handles this is where the delay occurs outside controlled signals. For example, playing Southampton, one train broke down at the Southampton Airport Parkway and another at Ashurst New Forest, both on the fringes of the sim, governed by automatic signals and with no points or anything else to control (maybe this is what lazzar means by "plain line"). I did reply that I would replace the signal (without being able to do so, as it was automatic without Emergency), and held my breath nervously in case this would stall the sim, but the train departed at the expected delayed time. Log in to reply |
| Re: Copy telephone call to Clipboard 16/02/2012 at 23:14 #29608 | |
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lazzer
605 posts |
" said:(maybe this is what lazzar means by "plain line") That is exactly what I mean by "plain line" - the line between one signal and the next contains no points, crossovers, junctions or ground frames. It is simply two rails next to each other all the way. You wouldn't expect to find plain line in advance of a controlled signal, because controlled signals usually protect junctions and crossovers. That's not to say you don't find it, but I can't think of anywhere I know off the top of my head where there is plain line in advance of a controlled signal. Last edited: 16/02/2012 at 23:15 by lazzer Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Copy telephone call to Clipboard 16/02/2012 at 23:16 #29609 | |
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sloppyjag
480 posts |
Although the signal may be outwith the area of your control you may still wish to clear a route from a signal ahead of that signal which is under your control. This may, under normal circumstances, result in the signal the train is stood at being presented with a more restrictive aspect (e.g. from green to yellow or double yellow) and an ACOA but by being given the option to replace the signal you could clear the route ahead without penalty. (Not got the Southampton sim open so don't know if this would apply in the examples you have given.)
Planotransitophobic! Last edited: 16/02/2012 at 23:19 by sloppyjag Reason: to add an example. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Copy telephone call to Clipboard 16/02/2012 at 23:40 #29611 | |
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postal
5190 posts |
" said:Since the regs say signaller doesn't contact driver, driver has to initiate call, SimSig's ACOA interpretation (which I gather is a SimSig-specific term) obeys this faithfully, IMO.Not sure that's a strictly accurate representation. The part of the Rule Book that ralphjwchadkirk quoted says: Quote: Except in an emergency, if you have cleared a signal for a train to start you must not replace it to danger before the train starts, until you have made sure that the driver is aware that you are going to do so, or you have made sure the train does not have a driver.There is nothing there about who can initiate any call. The only stipulation is that signaller (and driver if relevant) are aware of the situation. Be that as it may, thanks for the courteous approach to the matter. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Copy telephone call to Clipboard 17/02/2012 at 08:06 #29617 | |
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clive
2738 posts |
" said:You wouldn't expect to find plain line in advance of a controlled signal, because controlled signals usually protect junctions and crossovers. That's not to say you don't find it, but I can't think of anywhere I know off the top of my head where there is plain line in advance of a controlled signal.Lots of it on Euston - there's very few automatic signals at all. Some on Cambridge, where a signal protects an AHB or MWL crossing - the signal may normally be left to work automatically, but it's still controlled. On Peterborough, there's the four signals at Bytham that used to protect a level crossing that was abolished long ago. And then there's P324, on the Up Fast near St.Neots. Nobody seems to know why that's controlled - a signaller and I spent 15 minutes one day trying different combinations of routes on the real panel to see if it protected any other moves, and it doesn't. Where individual boxes working AB or TCB to each other are still operating, section signals are controlled by definition even though they have plain line ahead. Signals on bidirectional lines are often controlled even though they're on plain line. Shall I stop now? Log in to reply |
| Re: Copy telephone call to Clipboard 17/02/2012 at 09:23 #29619 | |
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Ron_J
329 posts |
Dundee - only two autos, every other signal is controlled with no auto buttons.. Perth - no autos at all*, every signal is controlled with no auto buttons.. Aberdeen - no autos at all, every signal is controlled with no auto buttons.. Inverness - you get the idea by now... So all four panel boxes in the North of Scotland have only 2 automatic signals between them. *Perth used to have one automatic signal on the Down Highland line (curiously numbered 'DA'  but it was abolished in 1986.
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| Re: Copy telephone call to Clipboard 17/02/2012 at 10:52 #29620 | |
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kbarber
1712 posts |
" said:
I think nowadays you often do have teleprinters - or maybe they're outputs from other systems that can also handle free-form messages (I'm sure others here can say what really exists in boxes both large and small). But it used to be that the best you could expect was a telephone. (And the pad made up of the backs of old notices, on which you scribbled messages as they came in.) By the late 1970s most places - certainly in the London area - had dial phones of the sort we're used to everywhere, albeit the gubbins was often rather slower & less reliable than the Post Office telephone network (what's now British Telecom)... and that could lead to some interesting situations in itself. There were often also special Control circuits. The Eastern Region was fond of a design where all the phones were on an "omnibus" circuit, with the Controller wearing headphones & permanently on, but each location could be called individually by some kind of selector apparatus; the box would click & chatter away occasionally, and occasionally that would lead to the bell ringing (a single long ring on a particularly loud & insistent bell as I recall). But earlier (and even then, I suspect, in more remote locations) the norm was the "omnibus" phone - a circuit with many phones attached and one or more buttons that, when pressed, caused the bell to ring on all the phones in the circuit. A code of long & short rings was then used to call the particular location you wanted. (In many places you could call the box next door to the phone by using the bell signal one pause two; I don't know where that code came from, because I've never seen it in any block regulations anywhere, but it did seem pretty universal.) Sometimes messages had to be passed from one circuit to another; it helped to write them down if you wanted to avoid the Chinese Whispers effect! (The other thing you needed to remember was that the circuit wasn't private; if you wanted to "square" some indiscretion there was always the risk that the District Inspector would be listening in...) There were also "block phones". A telephone handset would be connected at each end of a block bell circuit. If you wanted to talk to your mate, you rang one pause one (in my experience always "flat ones", in which the tapper was held down so the hammer was held against the bell & damped the sound) to tell him to pick up the phone. It was, of course, completely private. It could also give you a nasty smack in the ear if you were listening when your mate hit his tapper - the crack in the earpiece had to be heard to be believed! Prior to that, of course, there was the single needle telegraph. There's a good picture of a couple here http://www.signalbox.org/branches/jh/telegraph.htm (second picture down) and a very good article about their use. I recall my father using them in Biggleswade box, on the GN Main Line that John writes about, as late as 1971/2 and I've no reason to think they stopped being used before the box closed in 1976. I understand there were parts of Lincolnshire where the telegraph was the only communication in many boxes until about that time - no phones at all! In fact it's reckoned that one reason GN signalmen were such good regulators was that they had a continuously updated picture of the traffic in their minds' eye, courtesy of the single needle, and I'm reliably informed that Wood Green No. 4 couldn't have functioned at all without the information that came in via the telegraph. Last edited: 17/02/2012 at 10:52 by kbarber Log in to reply The following users said thank you: maxand, Josie |
| Re: Copy telephone call to Clipboard 17/02/2012 at 11:09 #29621 | |
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kbarber
1712 posts |
" said:
I think this isn't solely about what the rules say, it's also to do with the limitations of the technology. Until relatively recently, the signalman couldn't initiate a call to a driver held at a signal as signal post telephones only worked one way. Eventually, two-way ringing became available, but there wasn't that much chance a driver would hear the phone if he was in the cab of a diesel loco with the windows all shut on a filthy wet night. Adding a flashing light helped - a bit (some drivers were more willing than others to go out into such a night). Radio technology is now available - though far from universal - to allow full two-way calling, but the powers that be in this country are absolutely paranoid about the possibility of distracting drivers or signalmen so a bobby isn't allowed to call an individual driver on the radio in normal circumstances. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Copy telephone call to Clipboard 17/02/2012 at 11:18 #29622 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Keith Barber wrote: Quote: I think this isn't solely about what the rules say, it's also to do with the limitations of the technology. Until relatively recently, the signalman couldn't initiate a call to a driver held at a signal as signal post telephones only worked one way. That's a very good reason! Thanks once again Keith for sharing your wealth of experience with us in this way. And to everyone else for reminding us non-professionals of the variety of equipment, systems and solutions that abound. Last edited: 17/02/2012 at 11:21 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: Copy telephone call to Clipboard 17/02/2012 at 11:31 #29623 | |
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jc92
3630 posts |
" said:" said:a slight exception would be a signal with the light on it marked "contact signalman" or similar to tell the traincrew he has a message for them "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |