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AHB Level crossing timings

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AHB Level crossing timings 24/04/2012 at 12:09 #31752
Hugh Jampton
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I wonder if anybody on here can help answer this: A mate and I were out walking yesterday in Lydney (Glos) and were about to cross Naas Lane Automatic Half Barrier level crossing when the warning lights started flashing. No more than 15 seconds after the amber began to flash, the train came past (XC class 170, presumably Cardiff-Nottingham). I was concerned by how quickly the train arrived and I'm sure I read somewhere that there must be at least 27 seconds between the start of the warning sequence and the train arriving. Does a fault need reporting to Network Rail or are there other rules that apply here?
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Re: AHB Level crossing timings 24/04/2012 at 13:41 #31756
AndyG
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1835 posts
The amber light doesn't flash, it shows steady for a few seconds before the red wig-wag lights operate.
I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either.
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Re: AHB Level crossing timings 24/04/2012 at 13:50 #31757
John
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Quote:
Usually 9-12 seconds before the train arrives
3:10 minutes in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7hyIkqyp9k&feature=relmfu

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Re: AHB Level crossing timings 24/04/2012 at 15:28 #31765
Steamer
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I know that AHBs aren't second nature to most people, but is it really necessary for Network Rail to treat them like 5-year-olds?
"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Re: AHB Level crossing timings 24/04/2012 at 15:59 #31766
jc92
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3631 posts
" said:
I know that AHBs aren't second nature to most people, but is it really necessary for Network Rail to treat them like 5-year-olds?
i imagine when people start acting like responsible adults around level crossings, authorities will start treating them as such...

"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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Re: AHB Level crossing timings 24/04/2012 at 16:33 #31768
DaveHarries
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1270 posts
An inevitable question follows here as to where some of those locations were. I ntoe that two of the boxes were Tutbury LC and East Farleigh. However, OOI, where were the locations shown at:

1m 23s (box & lc)
1m 35s (station & LC gates)
2m 59s (the train gave its destination as Derby)
3m 38s (where is that box I wonder?)

I ask as they would be prime candidates for the signalling photos archive I am currently spending a bit of time on and I am therefore trying to get as many boxes as possible before they all disappear. A bit odd perhaps but signalboxes, and mechanical signals as a whole, are part of the history of the railways of this country.

Dave

Dave

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Re: AHB Level crossing timings 24/04/2012 at 17:15 #31774
Stephen Fulcher
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If memory serves me correctly, then AHBs are generally designed to be twenty-four seconds from the time when the train "Strikes in" (that is hit the approach treadle and/or track circuit) to its arrival at the crossing assuming that it is travelling at the maximum line speed.

It sounds to me like you may have been looking at only the flashing red lights not the steady amber which precedes it, although that would also indicate that the amber was lit for too long and the reds not long enough. Do you mind me asking what you were using to calculate the time - ie stopwatch or counting in your head?

steamer said:
I know that AHBs aren't second nature to most people, but is it really necessary for Network Rail to treat them like 5-year-olds?

JC92 is correct - basically it is best to treat idiots as such. Very few level crossing irregularities are caused by children, mostly by adults who think they know better. I am aware of instances where people have got their cars trapped between barriers of CCTV crossings, regularly hear of pedestrians jumping over them, and the number of reports of near misses is statistically rising.

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Re: AHB Level crossing timings 24/04/2012 at 17:31 #31776
Peter Bennet
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5362 posts
From the Developer's manual we work on (minimum) 29 secs on a single line and 39 on multiple line (at line speed) from strike-in point.

Peter

I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
Last edited: 24/04/2012 at 17:32 by Peter Bennet
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Re: AHB Level crossing timings 24/04/2012 at 17:34 #31777
Steamer
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I said:
I know that AHBs aren't second nature to most people, but is it really necessary for Network Rail to treat them like 5-year-olds?
I think 'second nature' was the wrong phrase to use, I meant to say that the majority of people probably don't know the difference between various types of crossing, and how they are controlled.

Stephen Fulcher said:
JC92 is correct - basically it is best to treat idiots as such. Very few level crossing irregularities are caused by children, mostly by adults who think they know better. I am aware of instances where people have got their cars trapped between barriers of CCTV crossings, regularly hear of pedestrians jumping over them, and the number of reports of near misses is statistically rising.


I agree that they should know better, however this video appears to be aimed at people in general, the vast majority of whom treat crossings properly. I think a general video such as this should be a bit less patronising. Similarly, on the second video posted in this topic, the real signallers featured were far more interesting than the narrator.

"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
Last edited: 24/04/2012 at 17:35 by Steamer
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Re: AHB Level crossing timings 24/04/2012 at 18:06 #31780
Hugh Jampton
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69 posts
" said:
The amber light doesn't flash, it shows steady for a few seconds before the red wig-wag lights operate.

You're right, it was steady amber, how silly of me!

Thanks, John, for the link to the video.

" said:
If memory serves me correctly, then AHBs are generally designed to be twenty-four seconds from the time when the train "Strikes in" (that is hit the approach treadle and/or track circuit) to its arrival at the crossing assuming that it is travelling at the maximum line speed.

It sounds to me like you may have been looking at only the flashing red lights not the steady amber which precedes it, although that would also indicate that the amber was lit for too long and the reds not long enough. Do you mind me asking what you were using to calculate the time - ie stopwatch or counting in your head?

I was walking up the road towards the crossing and looking straight at it when the amber light came on. I timed it using the second hand of my watch and it was 14-15 seconds between looking at the watch for the first time and the train passing. I can't imagine I took longer than 3 seconds reaction time between seeing the amber and looking at the watch, so that's 18 seconds at most.

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Re: AHB Level crossing timings 24/04/2012 at 18:21 #31782
Stephen Fulcher
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Which crossing?
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Re: AHB Level crossing timings 24/04/2012 at 18:47 #31783
GB
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The minimum time from start of sequence to the trains arrival is as follows...

3 seconds Amber lights
4-6 seconds from the start of flashing red lights to start of lower sequence
6-10 seconds to reach the fully lowered position.
8 seconds minimum lowered time before train arrives.

3+6+10+8 = 27 seconds

If the level crossing does not meet this standard then it needs reporting.

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Re: AHB Level crossing timings 24/04/2012 at 19:03 #31787
Stephen Fulcher
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2027 posts
I agree, if the crossing is going off far too late then it is a wrong side failure that needs investigation from the S&T
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Re: AHB Level crossing timings 24/04/2012 at 19:06 #31788
Hugh Jampton
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69 posts
" said:
Which crossing?
Naas Lane, Lydney:
http://www.geolocation.ws/v/W/File:Gloucester%20to%20Chepstow%20Railway%20Line%20-%20geograph.org.uk%20-%20836493.jpg/-/en

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Re: AHB Level crossing timings 25/04/2012 at 06:40 #31794
clive
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" said:
From the Developer's manual we work on (minimum) 29 secs on a single line and 39 on multiple line (at line speed) from strike-in point.
However, the 39 seconds includes 10 seconds for the "another train coming" logic; the amber light comes on at the end of this period, so to the road user it's 29 seconds irrespective of the type.

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Re: AHB Level crossing timings 25/04/2012 at 06:42 #31795
clive
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" said:
I was walking up the road towards the crossing and looking straight at it when the amber light came on. I timed it using the second hand of my watch and it was 14-15 seconds between looking at the watch for the first time and the train passing. I can't imagine I took longer than 3 seconds reaction time between seeing the amber and looking at the watch, so that's 18 seconds at most.
If you definitely timed it, then it's worth reporting. Make sure you report the direction of the train.

The best thing you could do is to stand at the crossing, time another one, and if it's still too short phone the signaller and use the words "wrong side failure".

Last edited: 25/04/2012 at 08:26 by AndyG
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Re: AHB Level crossing timings 25/04/2012 at 08:06 #31796
Hugh Jampton
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" said:

The best thing you could do is to stand at the crossing, time another one, and if it's still too short phone the signaller and use the words "wrong side failure".
Agreed, I ought to do that, not least to prove to myself that I'm not going mad. It'll be a couple of weeks before I have time to go back and check it out (I don't live near there).

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Re: AHB Level crossing timings 25/04/2012 at 17:37 #31809
UKTrainMan
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I'd be a little wary of calling the signaller directly and using railway terminology, particularly if you don't work for the railway yourself, as it may cause some confusion.

Personally, I'd call Network Rail on 08457 11 41 41, select the appropriate option (6 for new/other issues) and report it that way. Unfortunately, the person you're likely to speak to doesn't work for Network Rail directly*, so you might have to do a little explaining, but I'd still say that it's the best thing to do.

* = Their call centre is operated by Teleperformance.

Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for.
Last edited: 25/04/2012 at 17:37 by UKTrainMan
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Re: AHB Level crossing timings 25/04/2012 at 18:27 #31810
lazzer
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605 posts
On the South Wales mainline in the down direction between Cardiff and Bridgend, as you come round the corner and sight Pontsarn AHBC you can see the barriers still lowering. The train is just under a quarter of a mile away at this point and travelling at 75mph. The activation treddle is miles in rear of the train at the point the driver sights the crossing, so I have often wondered if the timings are set a little tight at this one.
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Re: AHB Level crossing timings 25/04/2012 at 20:15 #31815
Firefly
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To be honest there is unlikely to anything wrong with the crossing timings. More likely that the train was travelling too fast.

FF

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Re: AHB Level crossing timings 25/04/2012 at 20:40 #31816
Peter Bennet
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5362 posts
" said:
I wonder if anybody on here can help answer this: A mate and I were out walking yesterday in Lydney (Glos) and were about to cross Naas Lane Automatic Half Barrier level crossing when the warning lights started flashing. No more than 15 seconds after the amber began to flash, the train came past (XC class 170, presumably Cardiff-Nottingham). I was concerned by how quickly the train arrived and I'm sure I read somewhere that there must be at least 27 seconds between the start of the warning sequence and the train arriving. Does a fault need reporting to Network Rail or are there other rules that apply here?

" said:

I was walking up the road towards the crossing and looking straight at it when the amber light came on. I timed it using the second hand of my watch and it was 14-15 seconds between looking at the watch for the first time and the train passing. I can't imagine I took longer than 3 seconds reaction time between seeing the amber and looking at the watch, so that's 18 seconds at most.
While it is implicit in your posts that the barriers were not down when the train passed, was that infact the case? I ask because I'd have expected that to have been the headline to your posts but you don't mention it.

Peter

I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
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Re: AHB Level crossing timings 26/04/2012 at 05:09 #31824
Hugh Jampton
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69 posts
" said:
While it is implicit in your posts that the barriers were not down when the train passed, was that infact the case? I ask because I'd have expected that to have been the headline to your posts but you don't mention it.
I didn't mean to imply that the barriers had failed. The barriers came down before the train passed and remained down during its passing. My query was solely to do with the length of time between the beginning of the sequence and the train arriving.

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Re: AHB Level crossing timings 26/04/2012 at 09:34 #31832
Firefly
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Roughly how many seconds were the barriers fully down prior to the train arriving at the crossing?
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Re: AHB Level crossing timings 26/04/2012 at 09:35 #31833
Josie
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310 posts
" said:
I'd be a little wary of calling the signaller directly and using railway terminology, particularly if you don't work for the railway yourself, as it may cause some confusion.
Not if you account for any confusion before it happens (as should always be done with important/safety-critical communication in any case!) - "Hello, is that the signaller? I'm a member of the public calling from Naas Lane level crossing and I need to report a wrong-side failure." Tells them all the facts to start with, ensures you're not mistaken for a signalling technician and includes the magic words "wrong-side failure" to ensure it's immediately taken seriously.

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Re: AHB Level crossing timings 26/04/2012 at 09:49 #31836
Firefly
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Quote:
I'm a member of the public calling from Naas Lane level crossing and I need to report a wrong-side failure." Tells them all the facts to start with, ensures you're not mistaken for a signalling technician and includes the magic words "wrong-side failure" to ensure it's immediately taken seriously.
Please DO NOT do this unless you are 100% certain of your facts, and then make sure that you leave your contact details so that the technicians can contact you.

Most crossing have loggers on them now so it will be very easy to prove how much time the barriers take to lower, however from the moment you make that call all trains will have to be cautioned over the crossing and delays will occur so please be absolutely certain that you know what you are talking about prior to spouting out the words "wrong side failure"

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