subsidiary aspects at Queen street

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subsidiary aspects at Queen street 26/02/2013 at 00:05 #41835
jc92
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can anyone tell me what the function of the subsidiary aspects was on glasgow Queen streets platform signals? theres no apparent route for the sub aspect to read to, and they dont appear in the cowlairs sim, nor on the splash screen of the panel.

secondary question: it looks like QS's starters had forward facing aspects, so were trains able to "hang over" the track circuit in advance, and still get a proceed aspect from the interlocking?

Joe

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subsidiary aspects at Queen street 26/02/2013 at 17:59 #41851
GeoffM
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Can you post a screenshot please?
SimSig Boss
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subsidiary aspects at Queen street 26/02/2013 at 23:29 #41857
jc92
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attached. the sub aspects are marked in red, and the forward facing indicator highlighted in yellow. ive seen locos sitting in advance of the signal, with "OFF" and "MAIN" indicated.

another question arises - these signals only have two lamps, so are either two aspect (unlike the simsig sim, which may be a difference in era) or one lamp is capable of displaying two colours?

Joe

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Last edited: 26/02/2013 at 23:31 by jc92
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subsidiary aspects at Queen street 27/02/2013 at 00:08 #41861
GeoffM
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Subs won't need a red aspect if they're mounted with a main signal capable of displaying a red aspect. So the two remaining lamps would be white, assuming it's not some odd Scottish thing.

As for the reverse facing signals, presumably you mean some sort of theatre route indicator? I would suggest that's more for people on or about the line. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think a train can proceed on a route indicator alone.

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subsidiary aspects at Queen street 27/02/2013 at 01:01 #41862
Danny252
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" said:
Subs won't need a red aspect if they're mounted with a main signal capable of displaying a red aspect. So the two remaining lamps would be white, assuming it's not some odd Scottish thing.
He means the main lamps.

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subsidiary aspects at Queen street 27/02/2013 at 04:59 #41863
GeoffM
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" said:
" said:
Subs won't need a red aspect if they're mounted with a main signal capable of displaying a red aspect. So the two remaining lamps would be white, assuming it's not some odd Scottish thing.
He means the main lamps.
Then your mind reading skills are far better than mine!

SimSig Boss
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subsidiary aspects at Queen street 27/02/2013 at 06:59 #41864
Peter Bennet
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Judging from the photo this was taken some years ago before or around the time of the transfer to Cowlairs - signal numbers look like they probably belong to Queen Street box.
I'd guess the PLs were used for loco shunting; the signals were fitted with back indications to allow trains to sit forward of the signal as you surmise.

There is some information here.

Peter

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subsidiary aspects at Queen street 27/02/2013 at 09:57 #41866
kbarber
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" said:

As for the reverse facing signals, presumably you mean some sort of theatre route indicator? I would suggest that's more for people on or about the line. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think a train can proceed on a route indicator alone.

There used to be quite a few places where trains at a terminus might not be entirely within the signals at the platform end. There was a GA instruction "Trains Not Completely Within Fixed Signals"; it was certainly still there in the 1981 edition and covered both situations where the signal could be cleared in spite of the front end of the train standing ahead of it and those where the train standing ahead would prevent the signal clearing. As there was a back-indication, I think we may safely take it those signals could be cleared with a loco ahead of them (and conceivably quite some way out into the throat, though we would need to see the locking charts to be sure how far). Technically, I think a back-indication of that kind is not considered a route indicator for the purposes of giving authority to proceed (even though the only indication it gives is of the route that's set).

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subsidiary aspects at Queen street 27/02/2013 at 10:40 #41867
jc92
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Thanks for the notice peter, i think its answered all my questions. seems the signalling is two aspect out of the station, with the PL signal authorising a loco into the tunnel only (as far as signal 14).

" said:
" said:

As for the reverse facing signals, presumably you mean some sort of theatre route indicator? I would suggest that's more for people on or about the line. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think a train can proceed on a route indicator alone.

There used to be quite a few places where trains at a terminus might not be entirely within the signals at the platform end. There was a GA instruction "Trains Not Completely Within Fixed Signals
the notice peter has provided includes this instruction. the other place that sticks in my mind is St. pancras when it was still under the OCS box, though there will be plenty of others.

one final curiosity - i thought cowlairs took QS straight away when the mechanical box was closed, but peter, you mentioned queen street box earlier. was there a panel box installed inbetween the old gantry mounted box, and the current arrangement with cowlairs controlling the signalling? equally modern cowlairs has a different numbering scheme to that indicated in that resignalling notice, so presumably it was resignalled again? certainly the carriage siding(s) were removed circa 87?

Joe

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subsidiary aspects at Queen street 27/02/2013 at 12:04 #41868
Peter Bennet
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" said:


one final curiosity - i thought cowlairs took QS straight away when the mechanical box was closed, but peter, you mentioned queen street box earlier. was there a panel box installed inbetween the old gantry mounted box, and the current arrangement with cowlairs controlling the signalling? equally modern cowlairs has a different numbering scheme to that indicated in that resignalling notice, so presumably it was resignalled again? certainly the carriage siding(s) were removed circa 87?

Joe
Andrew might be able to provide chapter and verse on the history (have a look at his photo-site, there maybe something there) but somewhere I have a photograph of the Queen St Panel that was on display at the SRPS museum at Bo'Ness.

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subsidiary aspects at Queen street 27/02/2013 at 17:59 #41873
clive
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" said:

As there was a back-indication, I think we may safely take it those signals could be cleared with a loco ahead of them (and conceivably quite some way out into the throat, though we would need to see the locking charts to be sure how far). Technically, I think a back-indication of that kind is not considered a route indicator for the purposes of giving authority to proceed (even though the only indication it gives is of the route that's set).
I thought there would always be an OFF back indication, as well as any route or class indication (e.g. OFF M or OFF S), and this was authority to proceed.

Back indications are the only instance of amber in railway signalling (ignoring associated road signals at level crossings); they were defined as being amber, not yellow.

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subsidiary aspects at Queen street 28/02/2013 at 11:25 #41881
58050
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IIRC there was a back indicator on platform 6 at St. Pancras as the loco on some loco hauled trains would be past the inner signal on platform 6, however there was another signal located at the end of platform 6. The 2 of them may well have been co-acting signals. When I was on the footplate at St. Pancras in 1985 we were rostered to work 1D26 0204 Newspapers to Nottingham. Trains consisted of 10 BGs with a Cl.45/1 normally. The engine was past the 1st signal on P6, but the loco was just behind the signal psotitioned at the foot of the platform ramp on P6. You used to get the 'R' light up on the back indicator giving the driver the 'right away' tip, but there was no stencil indicator on the back to display 'S' or 'F'.
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subsidiary aspects at Queen street 28/02/2013 at 19:08 #41895
lambie
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This might help you about queen street cowlairs power box took over queen street when it was closed cowlairs had separate panel in the box.
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subsidiary aspects at Queen street 28/02/2013 at 23:10 #41911
Forest Pines
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" said:


Andrew might be able to provide chapter and verse on the history (have a look at his photo-site, there maybe something there) but somewhere I have a photograph of the Queen St Panel that was on display at the SRPS museum at Bo'Ness.
The panel on display at Bo'ness was the emergency local panel from Queen St relay room; when it was in use, normal control was from Cowlairs. I was a volunteer at Bo'ness shortly before it went on display: it's very heavy to lift, but not quite as heavy as the LNER Galashiels panel the SRPS also has lurking somewhere in the museum buildings! If I recall correctly, you can tell it was an emergency relay room panel from the "enable indications" switch and "enable local control" keyswitch in one corner, so it could be left disabled and dark when not in use.

Last edited: 28/02/2013 at 23:10 by Forest Pines
Reason: Messed up the quote tags!

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subsidiary aspects at Queen street 01/03/2013 at 09:54 #41918
kbarber
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" said:
IIRC there was a back indicator on platform 6 at St. Pancras as the loco on some loco hauled trains would be past the inner signal on platform 6, however there was another signal located at the end of platform 6. The 2 of them may well have been co-acting signals. When I was on the footplate at St. Pancras in 1985 we were rostered to work 1D26 0204 Newspapers to Nottingham. Trains consisted of 10 BGs with a Cl.45/1 normally. The engine was past the 1st signal on P6, but the loco was just behind the signal psotitioned at the foot of the platform ramp on P6. You used to get the 'R' light up on the back indicator giving the driver the 'right away' tip, but there was no stencil indicator on the back to display 'S' or 'F'.

Interesting.

I do recall the back indications (P7 as well as P6) from my visits to St P. I have a diagram that shows those signals (SP21 & SP22) were a little back from the platform end, in rear of the scissors crossover between the platforms. However the next signal(s) in advance were 34, 35 & 36 which were on the gantry spanning the whole throat (so I reckon on the girder bridge over St Pancras Road, replacements for the old semaphore gantry that used to be there). So I'm not sure what the second signal was.

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