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| Unsafe reversing 23/04/2013 at 00:14 #43855 | |
Late Turn
696 posts |
" said:So we have 2 ways of doing the same job; I know that some Manchester signalmen also PAD the signal without using the block, too. :huh: Entirely legitimate if the box in advance is closed. Less so if not, of course. The wording of ABR 3.3.1 is terrible, I'll admit, but I've never heard anyone else suggest that it wouldn't be ok to send 3-5 after a movement has been been brought back inside the section signal (the voices of experience seem to be suggesting that it was done, legitimately, on a regular basis...!). Are you sure that it's the rest of us, and all of our managers and trainers, who are lacking understanding? Tom Log in to reply |
| Unsafe reversing 23/04/2013 at 00:24 #43856 | |
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vontrapp
210 posts |
Yes, I think so. I questioned those and they did not know the answer. Log in to reply |
| Unsafe reversing 23/04/2013 at 00:26 #43857 | |
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vontrapp
210 posts |
The rules/regulations have the answer.
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| Unsafe reversing 23/04/2013 at 00:32 #43858 | |
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vontrapp
210 posts |
The train has entered the section, on AB, it cannot be cancelled. it has to proceed to the next SB and crossed-over and sent back.
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| Unsafe reversing 23/04/2013 at 00:40 #43859 | |
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Late Turn
696 posts |
So you reckon it's safer to let something enter the block section without any communication with the chap in advance, passing the section signal at Danger, than it is to signal it on the block and cancel it off again? Happily the problem has gone away now that 3-3-2 can be used anywhere, but I know which I'd prefer...
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| Unsafe reversing 23/04/2013 at 00:40 #43860 | |
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vontrapp
210 posts |
A train cannot be cancelled once it has entered the section. Look at the rules and regulations. Log in to reply |
| Unsafe reversing 23/04/2013 at 00:59 #43861 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
" said:A train cannot be cancelled once it has entered the section.Not sure what versions of the Rules and Regs that's in! What happens in the case of an engineering train that enters the section (not under possession), does some work, and returns the same way it came? If a train has some form of failure or meets an obstruction, and cannot proceed forwards, but can return backwards? Does the train stay on-line forever?! You certainly can't clear the block with out of section, because the train hasn't arrived at the box in advance with tail-lamp. To quote my R&Rs: Quote: Should it be necessary to cancel the Is line clear or Train entering section signal, the Signalman must restore the token to the instrument and send the Cancelling signal to the token station in advance. The Cancelling signal must only be used when the Is line clear signal has been accepted, or the Train entering section signal has been acknowledged by the Signalman in advance and it is found that the train concerned will not proceed in the usual course.The relevant regulation in the AL and AB sections is worded similarly. Edit: NR's AB regs also allow the Cancelling signal to be sent after TES, so I really am at a loss as to what vontrapp is on about. Last edited: 23/04/2013 at 01:03 by Danny252 Log in to reply |
| Unsafe reversing 23/04/2013 at 02:47 #43863 | |
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vontrapp
210 posts |
Error
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| Unsafe reversing 23/04/2013 at 04:12 #43865 | |
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Late Turn
696 posts |
" said:A train cannot be cancelled once it has entered the section. All the regs say, as Danny states above, is that it can be sent after 'train entering section' has been sent "if a train is not going to proceed". That wording certainly doesn't stop you sending it after a train has actually entered the section - the act of entering the section doesn't mean that it has "proceeded" any more than the act of approaching the section signal does. I'll repeat my question - are you saying that it would have been better to make the move into the block section without signalling it on the block at all, than to offer it and cancel it off? Last edited: 23/04/2013 at 04:12 by Late Turn Log in to reply |
| Unsafe reversing 23/04/2013 at 09:38 #43871 | |
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kbarber
1712 posts |
" said:Error I refer the Hon Gentleman to my previous post and in particular to www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=1023 where Col McMullen was clear that, in his view, the light engine should have been signalled on the block instruments. A query on the Blower (as commended in that post) would also get a pretty emphatic reply (indeed the matter has been raised there in the distant past); as members of that forum include signalmen both past and present along with retired movements inspectors and a RAIB inspector, I think their words carry some weight. When we did discuss it there was some incredulity that a shunt might take place without being put on the block and a clear consensus that it would be wrong to do so (and always had been, regardless of local interpretations). Log in to reply |
| Unsafe reversing 23/04/2013 at 11:46 #43874 | |
headshot119
4869 posts |
" said:A train cannot be cancelled once it has entered the section.I can think of at least one signal box which to this day, allows a train into a block section, the train then shuts away inside an intermediate ground frame, once the shunter confirms it is inside, and hands back the release of the frame to the box, the signaler bells out 3-5 to the adjacent box. "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply |
| Unsafe reversing 23/04/2013 at 12:47 #43877 | |
jc92
3629 posts 
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" said:" said:Croes Newydd North Fork by any chance? (Chirk GF).A train cannot be cancelled once it has entered the section.I can think of at least one signal box which to this day, allows a train into a block section, the train then shuts away inside an intermediate ground frame, once the shunter confirms it is inside, and hands back the release of the frame to the box, the signaler bells out 3-5 to the adjacent box. the rules and regs dictate only that cancelling is for if it will not proceed "in the usual course." which translates as it does not pass both the section and them home signal in advance. whats more curious is that a block inspector would authorise the movement? "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Unsafe reversing 23/04/2013 at 13:07 #43879 | |
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headshot119
4869 posts |
" said:" said:It's not proceeding in the usual course, as it isn't going to pass the home signal of the next box." said:Croes Newydd North Fork by any chance? (Chirk GF).A train cannot be cancelled once it has entered the section.I can think of at least one signal box which to this day, allows a train into a block section, the train then shuts away inside an intermediate ground frame, once the shunter confirms it is inside, and hands back the release of the frame to the box, the signaler bells out 3-5 to the adjacent box. "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply |
| Unsafe reversing 23/04/2013 at 13:53 #43880 | |
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jc92
3629 posts
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sorry karl I wasnt questioning you, they were two separate statements, 1st checking it was CNNF box, and then clarifying how the rules translate in general.
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Unsafe reversing 23/04/2013 at 14:41 #43883 | |
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headshot119
4869 posts |
" said:sorry karl I wasnt questioning you, they were two separate statements, 1st checking it was CNNF box, and then clarifying how the rules translate in general.Ahhh I did wonder if I'd read it right :silly: "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply |
| Unsafe reversing 23/04/2013 at 21:34 #43900 | |
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vontrapp
210 posts |
If a train is going into an intermediate sidings between SBa and SBb, 3-3-2 should be used and when the train is inside, 8 should be sent to SBb. Simple. 3-5 is an incorrect bell-signal for this. As for a passenger train, once it has gone into the section ahead, it has proceeded. There is no AB regulation for it to return to the SB in rear. If it de-trains at a STN in the section, it then should proceed to SBb for TOS to be sent and the train crossed over and sent as ECS to SBa. If that train is returning wrong-road to SBa, then 3-5 is totaly wrong. The needle should be kept at train-online and the next train signalled into the section with 2 beats and pass the section-siganl at danger. When it gets to SBb, TOS should be given. But this can't be done because it would have to be a train which has gone into the section ahead and returned under regs 7 etc,etc. Adrian Last edited: 23/04/2013 at 21:54 by vontrapp Log in to reply |
| Unsafe reversing 23/04/2013 at 22:33 #43908 | |
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Late Turn
696 posts |
" said:If a train is going into an intermediate sidings between SBa and SBb, 3-3-2 should be used and when the train is inside, 8 should be sent to SBb. Simple. 3-5 is an incorrect bell-signal for this. But we've already seen examples quoted of places where trains for intermediate sidings were offered normally then cancelled off (and this was my understanding of how it would normally be done anyway), presumably supported by the SBSIs. Quote: As for a passenger train, once it has gone into the section ahead, it has proceeded. Where is this term "proceeded" defined please? Quote: There is no AB regulation for it to return to the SB in rear. If it de-trains at a STN in the section, it then should proceed to SBb for TOS to be sent and the train crossed over and sent as ECS to SBa. The examples given so far relate to signalled moves back out of the (short?) section. There's provision in the Rule Book for movements to return in the wrong direction for various reasons though. Quote: If that train is returning wrong-road to SBa, then 3-5 is totaly wrong. The needle should be kept at train-online and the next train signalled into the section with 2 beats and pass the section-siganl at danger. When it gets to SBb, TOS should be given. But this can't be done because it would have to be a train which has gone into the section ahead and returned under regs 7 etc,etc. As you say, that only applies (under certain conditions) if the train has failed and been assisted. There's no mention of any requirement to do this if the train returns as a wrong direction movement to A. So are we all wrong? Tom Log in to reply |
| Unsafe reversing 23/04/2013 at 22:55 #43910 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
" said:Quote:And in fact, my rulebook never requires the next train to go in as two beats, whether the failed train was assisted or not:If that train is returning wrong-road to SBa, then 3-5 is totaly wrong. The needle should be kept at train-online and the next train signalled into the section with 2 beats and pass the section-siganl at danger. When it gets to SBb, TOS should be given. But this can't be done because it would have to be a train which has gone into the section ahead and returned under regs 7 etc,etc. Quote: Section obstructed by accident, by failed train, or by portion of trainOr for ETT: Quote: Should the failed train be cleared from the section at the signal box at which it entered the Single line, the Signalman must, after receiving an assurance from the trainmen that the section is clear, advise the Signalman at the opposite end of the section of the circumstances, replace the token in the instrument (if applicable) and send the Cancelling signal.To be honest, the idea of sending a passenger train in under 2 beats only is pretty horrifying! Last edited: 23/04/2013 at 22:56 by Danny252 Log in to reply |
| Unsafe reversing 23/04/2013 at 23:06 #43911 | |
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Late Turn
696 posts |
For us, the next train goes in on two beats (whether it's a passenger train or not!), unless the failure has been assisted forward to the advance end of the section, in which case TOS can be sent when it arrives there. It seems fair to me!
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| Unsafe reversing 24/04/2013 at 00:11 #43912 | |
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vontrapp
210 posts |
This discussion is distorted, as in the fact, we are talking about different rules.
Last edited: 24/04/2013 at 00:31 by vontrapp Log in to reply |
| Unsafe reversing 24/04/2013 at 00:43 #43913 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
" said:For us, the next train goes in on two beats (whether it's a passenger train or not!), unless the failure has been assisted forward to the advance end of the section, in which case TOS can be sent when it arrives there. It seems fair to me!In my mind, two beats signifies that "I am sending a train in, but the section may not be clear" - for example, sending in an assisting engine, or examining the line. If I'm sending a passenger train in, I'd rather not be doing it under that assumption! Admittedly, if you send it in normally, you're relying on the driver/guard to have confirmed that all vehicles of the assisted train have been cleared - but in your system, you're still relying on that if the train all goes to the box in advance. Log in to reply |
| Unsafe reversing 24/04/2013 at 01:05 #43914 | |
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Late Turn
696 posts |
I understand it more as "we have made sure that the section is clear, but cannot resume normal working until we've 'swept' the section with one sent in on two beats because the movement of trains in the normal direction has been disrupted". The failure being assisted forward does, of course, sweep the section itself if you follow that logic. I'll concede that one entering the section then bringing itself back inside the section signal (and cancelled off!) presents a similar situation, but the Rule Book makes no mention of the need to send one in on two beats in this case - the BI, of course, being restored to normal. I saw the briefest mention of CIRAS and NR, which seems to have mysteriously disappeared now. Could I suggest that Adrian's queries might be better directed towards the RSSB, but remembering that the generally permitted use of 3-3-2 nowadays renders the whole discussion obsolete? Tom Log in to reply |
| Unsafe reversing 24/04/2013 at 01:56 #43915 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
" said:The failure being assisted forward does, of course, sweep the section itself if you follow that logic.But that falls apart if the assisting engine comes from the box in advance, and then pulled the train back out at that end - unless there's a clause to say you still need to "sweep" in that case? (Can assistance usually come from advance in AB? The SVR AB regs actually only discuss sending it in rear, but seeing as the only section is a whole 800 or so yards long, it's conceivable that something has been cut out) Log in to reply |
| Unsafe reversing 24/04/2013 at 03:47 #43917 | |
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Late Turn
696 posts |
Yes, assistance can come from either end on AB. Normal working can be resumed straight away if a failure is assisted from the front and taken forward - I see the point about the assisting train moving in the wrong direction, but at least the last movement at any given point in the section will have been in the right direction...if that makes sense?! Tom Log in to reply |
| Unsafe reversing 24/04/2013 at 09:48 #43922 | |
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kbarber
1712 posts |
" said:If a train is going into an intermediate sidings between SBa and SBb, 3-3-2 should be used and when the train is inside, 8 should be sent to SBb. Simple. 3-5 is an incorrect bell-signal for this. If Reg 31 wasn't authorised, 3-3-2 and 8 couldn't be used. Simple as. " said: As for a passenger train, once it has gone into the section ahead, it has proceeded. There is no AB regulation for it to return to the SB in rear. If it de-trains at a STN in the section, it then should proceed to SBb for TOS to be sent and the train crossed over and sent as ECS to SBa. If it hasn't passed the home signal of the box in advance it hasn't proceeded through the section. It has entered the section, nothing more. " said: If that train is returning wrong-road to SBa, then 3-5 is totaly wrong. The needle should be kept at train-online and the next train signalled into the section with 2 beats and pass the section-siganl at danger. When it gets to SBb, TOS should be given. But this can't be done because it would have to be a train which has gone into the section ahead and returned under regs 7 etc,etc. I didn't come across this situation in my BR career but it was an everyday occurrence at Bewdley (SVR), where vehicles were left in the platforms overnight. Sometimes they entered as passenger trains, sometimes as ecs. Likewise when departing. Bewdley South closed with those trains still on the block and with the book showing TES sent but no TOS. When they departed (sometimes next morning, sometimes several days later) it was necessary to look back in the book to decide whether 2-1 or 3-5 should be sent (according to whether it was continuing in the same direction or being withdrawn at the end it had entered the section). Russ Maiden (at the time the signalmans' inspector, he now has a team to assist him) approved and taught that procedure. I respect Russ's knowledge of the rules. He worked with my father on the GN electrification and Dad's knowledge of the rules was second to none; he'd been a senior relief signalman on the GN and went on to retire as Chief Divisional Movements Inspector of the Central Division (the Brighton lines). Log in to reply |