More options for telephone calls please

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More options for telephone calls please 17/06/2013 at 02:21 #45745
maxand
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1637 posts 		When beginning to play SimSig I was greatly confused by the two sets of options offered in "signalling the driver", without realizing why. I kinda expected to be able to do anything via GSM-R, just as they do in the land of the brave and the home of the free. I was puzzled by why one can "tell" a driver to put a speeding train into reverse, but can't even tell him to stop! Slowly it dawned on me that F2 was HOG- (Hand Of God) wash. Pity then that there aren't two separate Train List windows, one that displays handy stuff that the signaller may need to look up (everything EXCEPT Status and Current/Prev location), and another with these two columns available only to the impossibly challenged, to make the distinction clear!

Likewise, I strongly support suggestions made by NoisyNoel
Quote:
The Reverse train function on SimSig doesn't exist in real life. If a driver is wrongly routed for example, he would stop on the nearest signal, contact the signaller who would state, either "Change ends where you are" or "Proceed to x and change ends
Also, the suggestion by AndyG:
Quote:
Often thought this could be a nice enhancement for SimSig, say another 2 responses "Driver, proceed to the [second] next signal and call me again immediately on your arrival there, please."
How's this, then?

1) Divide the Train List into two separate windows, Train Details and Train Status, as described above. Also, the current Train List window is way too wide and its columns, if narrowed, do not stay that way.
2) Leave Timetable Options on the Train Details window context menu but move Signalling Options and Extreme Measures to that of Train Status.
3) Take out "Tell driver to examine the line" and "Tell driver to examine the line and pass signal at danger". They already exist as Telephone Calls options, so why mix that which is realistic with that which is not?
4) Add "Stop immediately" - as unrealistic as "Reverse direction" but should help those in need PROVIDED THAT it is made clear that this is only a simulation workaround.
5) As suggested previously and supported by others, the "Reverse direction" option should appear disabled unless the train is stationary.
6) Add to Telephone Options list "Change ends" (no need for "Change ends where you are" - it is assumed the train is stationary at a signal!). However, this also assumes that after changing ends, the driver can see the next signal, so maybe "Change ends and proceed to next signal" might be more appropriate.
7) "Proceed to next signal and call again" would be a nice option but might require a bit of code reworking.
Last edited: 17/06/2013 at 04:43 by maxand
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More options for telephone calls please 17/06/2013 at 11:58 #45755
BoxBoyKit
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166 posts 		With regard to "Change ends and proceed to next signal" you may wish to read report about Elephant & CastleLink

Edit: Correcting Link
Last edited: 17/06/2013 at 11:59 by BoxBoyKit
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The following user said thank you: maxand
More options for telephone calls please 17/06/2013 at 12:41 #45758
JamesN
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1575 posts
Online 		To answer each of your numbered points:

1) Aren't we trying to make things simpler - more windows/options only serves to make things more complicated no?
2) N/A if window stays combined
3) Occasionally people click on the wrong button - if you accidentally hit "wait 15 minutes..." instead of "examine and pass signal" then you're in for a long wait! Having them as options in F2 serves as a useful get-around
4) Possibly, although I fail to see the benefit, F11 > Trains > Pause Train has the same effect
5) As discussed in the thread you link to it was changed years back owing to popular demand, as one of the people who called for it to be changed to how it currently is I would strongly object to any moves to revert those changes.
6) The issue being that lines are rarely bi-directional, it is more often than not inappropriate for the driver to simply change ends at a signal. The existing reverse train functionality under F2 suffices, and has the added implication that it is a hand-of-god action and should be used with caution.
7) Already exists if you've told a driver to examine line / examine line and pass signal in the newest simulations, although I can't remember specifically when it was introduced.
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More options for telephone calls please 17/06/2013 at 13:17 #45759
maxand
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1637 posts 		Link to Elephant and Castle post by AndyG here, actual RAIB PDF report here.

In this report there were, unusually it seems, no recommendation, only "Learning points"*.

Quote:
In particular:

  • signallers should not rely on train drivers knowing the identification number of a signal unless the driver is approaching from the direction in which the front of the identification number plate can be seen;

  • when giving a landmark to a train driver, a signaller should do so in clear and simple terms, and ensure that the driver gives a positive confirmation that he knows the position of that landmark; and

  • repeating back the words of a message may be insufficient to determine that the meaning has been understood.

Quote:
‘Learning points’ are intended to disseminate safety learning that is not covered by a recommendation. They
are included in a bulletin when the RAIB wishes to reinforce the importance of compliance with existing safety
arrangements (where the RAIB has not identified management issues that justify a recommendation) and the
consequences of failing to do so. They also record good practice and actions already taken by industry bodies that
may have a wider application.


These points are all sensible, applicable to many other signalling situations and do not IMO constitute a contraindication to proceeding in the reverse direction provided that due care is taken. Fortunately no one was hurt. Since "Reverse direction" is already built into SimSig, it makes no difference to a simulation whether this order comes from the Hand Of God or the telephone.

JamesN, I think we must agree to disagree. It's difficult to argue with entrenched conservatism.
Last edited: 17/06/2013 at 13:18 by maxand
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More options for telephone calls please 17/06/2013 at 14:36 #45760
Steamer
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3922 posts
Online 		Personally I don't see the point in splitting the train list into two other windows- everything in F2 is hand of god, on the basis that signallers don't have a convenient list of trains currently in their area. If you want to look up stuff like length or power type, it would be more realistic to search for the train in F4 (if you pretend F4 is a TRUST terminal or something similar).

JamesN said:
3) Occasionally people click on the wrong button - if you accidentally hit "wait 15 minutes..." instead of "examine and pass signal" then you're in for a long wait! Having them as options in F2 serves as a useful get-around
I'm also guilty of this from time to time, and appreciate the get-out.

Personally, I don't mind if Reverse Direction can only be clicked when the train is stopped, provided that a 'Stop Train' button is provided.

I agree with JamesN that changing ends at a signal is rarely appropriate (eg points in between the back of the train and the next signal in the opposite direction). If a movement required changing direction in an unusual place, it would probably be discussed and agreed over the phone before the train got to the reversing point, in which case 'Edit timetable' would be more appropriate.

manxand said:
7) "Proceed to next signal and call again" would be a nice option but might require a bit of code reworking.
On its own I'm not sure when that would be used, but it would be good if it was 'Pass signal at danger and call immediately at next signal', especially when you've got a TCF in a signal overlap.
"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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More options for telephone calls please 17/06/2013 at 15:18 #45761
Late Turn
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696 posts 		Perhaps an option in the F2 menu to have the Driver brought to the telephone would be helpful. I'm sure we've all pulled off for the wrong train in error at a busy station, and at present there's no way of resolving that without incurring an ACOA penalty. Combined with an option in the telephone call to advise the Driver that you'll be replacing his signal to Danger, that'd resolve that particular problem. The option (unrealistic, in my view) to talk by signals in the F2 menu should then be redundant, just leaving the 'hand of God' measures.

I agree that wrong direction movements - which aren't the earth-shattering occurrences that some seem to think theu are - would be more realistically handled within a telephone call. How would one specify the limit of the authority to make the movement though? As the E&C incident shows, there's often no convenient signal to aim for. If this 'stop' command still has to be handled through the F2 menu, once the movement's gone far enough, then - reluctantly - is there any point in issuing the initial incomplete instruction by 'telephone'?

Tom
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The following user said thank you: John
More options for telephone calls please 17/06/2013 at 16:23 #45764
Colourlight
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117 posts 		GSM-R is an extremely modern Communication System which requires all trains and locomotives to be fitted with it to be allowed to run on Network Rail Metals. It allows Satelite Communication between train Drivers, Signalboxes, Signalling Centres and Operations Control Centres. The downside is Fitting out has only recently been completed and some Simsigs were launched before it was even thought of, never mind up and running. I don,t know how much work is required in Smsig to have a seperate Control Panel which would allow you to select the specific driver you wish to talk to. There is already a telephone button to talk to various locations using selected messages and an input box to enter a headcode. Perhaps this could be used to contact a driver rather than F2. I,m not even sure that it,s necessary or desirable as I find F2 good enough for my needs.
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More options for telephone calls please 17/06/2013 at 16:28 #45765
Entimix
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16 posts 		" said:
Perhaps an option in the F2 menu to have the Driver brought to the telephone would be helpful. I'm sure we've all pulled off for the wrong train in error at a busy station, and at present there's no way of resolving that without incurring an ACOA penalty. Combined with an option in the telephone call to advise the Driver that you'll be replacing his signal to Danger, that'd resolve that particular problem.
Mm, I'd love to see something like this implemented. Especially when the train you've just signalled isn't due to leave for hours and the exit route is locking up the entire station... a quick call like that is exactly what you need!
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More options for telephone calls please 17/06/2013 at 16:53 #45766
Late Turn
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696 posts 		" said:
There is already a telephone button to talk to various locations using selected messages and an input box to enter a headcode. Perhaps this could be used to contact a driver rather than F2. I,m not even sure that it,s necessary or desirable as I find F2 good enough for my needs.

My suggestion above would, I suppose, be the equivalent of the 'contact Signaller' message on GSM-R, but it might be helpful to be able to place a call to a Driver (which I'm reluctant to do in reality, to avoid the possibility of distracting him at a bad time). My feeling is that the F2 options are helpful but not particularly realistic - they don't simulate the time taken for a (pre GSM-R) Driver to get down to the SPT in the rain, or, nowadays, at least sit there for a couple of minutes before calling the box.
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More options for telephone calls please 17/06/2013 at 17:09 #45767
GeoffM
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6282 posts 		Without getting too involved in the debate for the moment (but I am watching with interest), I have wondered whether/how the F2 train list window could do with a makeover. Not flowerpots in the window but filters, selection of columns, "find" facility etc. The nagging problem I have is that it's such a dynamic window - maybe it needs a pause facility where it doesn't update but the trains themselves are still moving.
SimSig Boss
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The following user said thank you: maxand
More options for telephone calls please 17/06/2013 at 23:14 #45775
Entimix
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16 posts 		In that vein, and while we're on the subject - simply being able to sort the list by different columns (e.g. by location as well as by ID) would be extremely helpful for things like the good old "What have I got in (x) platform?"
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The following user said thank you: Josie
More options for telephone calls please 18/06/2013 at 02:43 #45778
maxand
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1637 posts 		Thanks Geoff for considering improving the Train List window.

I agree with others that only being able to resize the window is inconvenient. It would be handy to rearrange the columns. Failing that, maybe the user could be given a choice as to which columns to hide and which to show. This alone would enable users who don't wish to see "hand of God" material to hide it and so make for a narrower window. Even displaying the WTT might be made optional when everything's going well. A single, customizable Train List window might thus find more favour than splitting it into two.

The more driver telephone options, the better. However, I also look forward to future simulations where GSM is offered as an alternative.
Last edited: 18/06/2013 at 02:44 by maxand
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More options for telephone calls please 18/06/2013 at 08:27 #45781
kbarber
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1712 posts 		" said:

The more driver telephone options, the better. However, I also look forward to future simulations where GSM is offered as an alternative.

If that's on the cards, any possibility of making it era-dependent? No era of Euston would've had GSM, likewise Stafford, to name just two that spring to mind.
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More options for telephone calls please 18/06/2013 at 17:52 #45797
Jan
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889 posts 		Or put make it an option on the Train Characteristic page, saying something like "Cab-radio-equipped". That would also cater for things like CSR, where only a subset of trains was ever fitted with it anyway.
So e.g. on a pre-GSM-R King's Cross timetable, you could directly contact the FCC/WAGN/... suburban trains, but would have to wait for long distance and freight trains to phone in.
Two million people attempt to use Birmingham's magnificent rail network every year, with just over a million of them managing to get further than Smethwick.
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