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Westbury DR line?

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Westbury DR line? 27/06/2013 at 13:39 #46086
maxand
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7C231's route takes it through Lavington, Heywood Rd Jn, Westbury, Fairwood Jn and all the way through to Merehead Quarry.

The Westbury entry reads "WESTBURY (Arr) 01:01 (Dep/Pass) 01d03 (Line) DR". I don't understand what the "d" in 01d03 signifies. If it means "depart", why doesn't the entry read "(Arr) 01:01 (Dep/Pass) 01:03"?

Also, what is the DR line? Down Receiving? If so, wouldn't it be clearer to display "DN REC"? It seems wrong to divert this freight train through the DN REC line when it appears to be a dedicated quarry train headed for Merehead Quarry rather than a general freight train stopping to offload or receive freight. Wouldn't it be more sensible to use the DOWN WESTBURY AVOIDING track?

I've been searching for the Wiki page that explains the different meanings of the times symbols used in the Show Timetable window, such as a forward slash (/) to signify "passes through without stopping", and all the others such as the "d" just mentioned. There's no explanation of them on the Wiki page for the Show Timetable window, so if someone can tell me where it's explained in the Forum or Wiki I'll add a cross-reference. Thanks, sorry to display my ignorance again.

Last edited: 27/06/2013 at 13:46 by maxand
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Westbury DR line? 27/06/2013 at 13:50 #46088
Noisynoel
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DR = Down Rec. There is a restriction on the amount of characters available to the developer for use as path, line & plat codes.
The d in the departure time in layman's terms effectively means that it could depart from that location early

Noisynoel
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Westbury DR line? 27/06/2013 at 13:53 #46089
TimTamToe
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" said:
7C231's route takes it through Lavington, Heywood Rd Jn, Westbury, Fairwood Jn and all the way through to Merehead Quarry.

The Westbury entry reads "WESTBURY (Arr) 01:01 (Dep/Pass) 01d03 (Line) DR". I don't understand what the "d" in 01d03 signifies. If it means "depart", why doesn't the entry read "(Arr) 01:01 (Dep/Pass) 01:03"?
Hi Max,

If I remember rightly the "d" is from set Down, (I realise the train you're asking about is a freight) but for a passenger train it would not be picking up passengers so once everyone that wanted to get off was it could (using your example timing) leave before 01:03 hence 01d03. So for your example 7C231 it could depart before 01:03 if it was ready to do so

Hope that makes sense

Gareth

or just look above for Noel's clearer explanation!

Last edited: 27/06/2013 at 13:55 by TimTamToe
Reason: noel concisely posted while I was waffling

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Westbury DR line? 27/06/2013 at 14:50 #46091
Late Turn
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To answer the last remaining question - at a guess, it's booked to stop for relief (which, in reality, carries the risk of the relieving driver not being ready, especially if the train's early), which would be why it's booked via the station (any line would do?) rather than the avoiding line.

Tom

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Westbury DR line? 27/06/2013 at 15:04 #46092
AndyG
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" said:
I've been searching for the Wiki page that explains the different meanings of the times symbols used in the Show Timetable window, such as a forward slash (/) to signify "passes through without stopping", and all the others such as the "d" just mentioned. There's no explanation of them on the Wiki page for the Show Timetable window, so if someone can tell me where it's explained in the Forum or Wiki I'll add a cross-reference. Thanks, sorry to display my ignorance again.
Is http://www.simsig.co.uk/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=usertrack%3Attuse%3Atiming_codes what you were looking for?

I wonder who the original author was? :whistle:

I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either.
Last edited: 27/06/2013 at 15:06 by AndyG
Reason: link correction

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Westbury DR line? 27/06/2013 at 15:05 #46093
maxand
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Thanks guys. I finally found the thread I'd been looking for - Please explain timetable format.

There may be others equally good or better. If anyone has bookmarked one, please post link, alternatively please advise where the Wiki page is on this stuff.

(added) That's it - Timing codes! Thanks AndyG.

Last edited: 27/06/2013 at 15:07 by maxand
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Westbury DR line? 27/06/2013 at 15:12 #46094
Colourlight
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I,m working on a 1985 timetable for Westbury that I downloaded and the "d" is not really necessary as the drivers of non-passenger trains are constantly ringing up before their booked departure time. The "d" can be used in a through Line to indicate it is stopping for crew relief etc! which is probably the reason it is included in the schedule rather than a stop for regulating purposes. A 2 minute stop is typical for crew relief.
In the 1985 Timetable all the Merehead services run via Westbury Station rather than the Avoiding line. I assume this was common practice at the time for the purposes of Crew Diagrams, engine changes and Regulating as required.

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Westbury DR line? 27/06/2013 at 15:25 #46096
AndyG
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Another 'trick' when using set-down times for a crew change is to add a rule 'must not depart until 2 minutes after arrived' to ensure the full 2 minutes dwell time, rather than the 30 sec default.

Also if you use the usual hh:mm departure time with a Cl 4 & 6-9 train, the train may or may not wait for that time. This random element would simulate whether the relief driver/crew is ready or not.

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Westbury DR line? 27/06/2013 at 15:51 #46098
GeoffM
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" said:
To answer the last remaining question - at a guess, it's booked to stop for relief (which, in reality, carries the risk of the relieving driver not being ready, especially if the train's early), which would be why it's booked via the station (any line would do?) rather than the avoiding line.

Tom
Correct. I was lucky enough to ride this train (or one similar). A Hither Green (London) driver takes it as far as Westbury, where a local driver (I think Westbury based) takes it on to the quarry. Presumably booked via the reception to keep it away from the station but on my trip it was routed through the station on greens, with the relief driver waiting on the platform.

SimSig Boss
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Westbury DR line? 27/06/2013 at 15:52 #46099
GeoffM
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" said:
Another 'trick' when using set-down times for a crew change is to add a rule 'must not depart until 2 minutes after arrived' to ensure the full 2 minutes dwell time, rather than the 30 sec default.
The about-to-be-released sims now have an optional dwell time per train, per location for this kind of event which override developer/code defaults.

SimSig Boss
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Westbury DR line? 27/06/2013 at 16:01 #46100
Late Turn
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I seem to remember it being discussed at some length previously, but I'd find it helpful to know in advance whether a non-passenger train's likely to wait time at a booked stop or not. Could an additional 'traincrew relief' flag perhaps be introduced - if not ticked, a non-passenger train may depart before time (subject to observing dwell time, timetable rules etc.), but otherwise might be held until much nearer to (or even beyond, for a certain FOC's trains ) booked time, with a phone call to advise when the relief driver's available?
Last edited: 27/06/2013 at 16:02 by Late Turn
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Westbury DR line? 27/06/2013 at 16:12 #46102
GeoffM
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" said:
I seem to remember it being discussed at some length previously, but I'd find it helpful to know in advance whether a non-passenger train's likely to wait time at a booked stop or not. Could an additional 'traincrew relief' flag perhaps be introduced - if not ticked, a non-passenger train may depart before time (subject to observing dwell time, timetable rules etc.), but otherwise might be held until much nearer to (or even beyond, for a certain FOC's trains ) booked time, with a phone call to advise when the relief driver's available?
A "Crew change" flag has already been incorporated in timetables; however, it won't do anything just yet. That is certainly the aim and this is the first step towards that so when the code behind has been written, timetables won't need to be amended.

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Westbury DR line? 27/06/2013 at 19:34 #46105
UKTrainMan
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" said:
7C231's route takes it through Lavington, Heywood Rd Jn, Westbury, Fairwood Jn and all the way through to Merehead Quarry.

" said:
Also, what is the DR line? Down Receiving? If so, wouldn't it be clearer to display "DN REC"? It seems wrong to divert this freight train through the DN REC line when it appears to be a dedicated quarry train headed for Merehead Quarry rather than a general freight train stopping to offload or receive freight. Wouldn't it be more sensible to use the DOWN WESTBURY AVOIDING track?
The use of DR in timetables is as per real life. Since SimSig is the most realistic signalling simulation I currently know of (I'll openly admit to having previously tried at-least one other one where you had to right-click on a signal to select the route to be set from it.... :huh:), DR is used exactly as I'd expect. See these randomly selected real world examples:

You will likely need to click on the GBTT button (wrench and screwdriver in an 'X' shape) to actually see them

http://opentraintimes.com/schedule/H13098/2013-06-27
http://opentraintimes.com/schedule/H13106/2013-06-27*
http://opentraintimes.com/schedule/H13105/2013-06-27*
(Actual trains booked to run today - does not mean that they will have actually run)

* = Note that these two trains are alternatives to each other. What this means is that if one runs, the other won't, or vice versa. Effectively like having a rule on a SimSig timetable along the lines of 'If train #1 runs, train #2 will not run'. I expect that it is highly unlikely that both would actually run!

Last edited: 27/06/2013 at 19:35 by UKTrainMan
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Westbury DR line? 28/06/2013 at 07:48 #46117
maxand
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Thanks again AndyG, GeoffM and UKTrainMan for further details.

It was nice to find that Wiki Timing Codes page again, particularly as it turned out I'd edited it earlier - only forgotten its location!

As one wise person told me many years ago, "That which is inaccessible might as well be lost". It probably wouldn't occur to anyone unfamiliar with SimSig to search for timetable legend under "Timing code", would it? So I'll add an extra cross-reference and this should not occur again. :lol:

I checked out the Open Train Times example pages and sure enough, they mentioned Westbury DR. At this point I nearly drowned in a sea of acronyms. "Data provided by Network Rail under licence." Then why "WTT schedule from ITPS" and why the need for a "GBTT" section too?

I looked up "GBTT" and found this link (Link removed by Moderator - Not family friendly). No, that can't be right. Ahh, "Great Britain TimeTable". So a WTT is for those who work, and a GBTT for those who don't? And where's Network Rail's official page explaining the timing codes? Could there be more hidden in there, waiting to turn up unannounced in future sims?

Aargh. GBTTD.

Last edited: 28/06/2013 at 14:17 by mfcooper
Reason: Removed link

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Westbury DR line? 28/06/2013 at 08:06 #46118
Peter Bennet
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Im think you have to remember that a lot of this stuff is written for internal use by NR and TOCs/FOCs and not for public consumption. They make it available as-is for anyone who is interested but that does not place any obligation on them to actually explain how it works; indeed they are not under any obligation to make it available in the first place. The fact that it is is a bonus for us: for which we are grateful.

Peter

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Westbury DR line? 28/06/2013 at 11:38 #46119
maxand
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Found the NR WTT home page:

Quote:
The Working Timetable (WTT) is the rail industry's version of the public national timetable.

It shows all movements on the rail network including freight trains, empty trains and those coming in and out of depots. It also includes our unique identification codes for each train, and intermediate times for journeys, including which stations a train is not scheduled to stop at.

Important: This document has been made available for rail industry professionals and should not be confused with the passenger timetable.
Nice definition and complements the one in our Wiki. However, on looking through some of their WTTs (like this one), the resemblance isn't as close as that of, say, Open Train Times, which still leaves me wondering where the "timing code" really comes from. Also, what's the meaning of "mgn" in the NR WTT 2nd column?

You're right, Peter. Very similar to Egyptian hieroglyphics - out there in public but where's the translation? My middle name ain't Champollion.

Last edited: 28/06/2013 at 11:39 by maxand
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Westbury DR line? 28/06/2013 at 11:49 #46120
Peter Bennet
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Opentraintimes I believe process the data into a format that suits them. I presume their source comes in electronically and is not necessarily a direct trascription of the pdf.

If I look at say 1C99 on the linked WTT (page 2) and OpenTrainTimes record of the same train then there are no Timing Codes within the section looked at on either source.

From memory I think there is another document "Rules of the Plan"? (which is linked from our WIKI) which sets out the available codes for each location- or maybe its the Sectional Appendix (also linked) - either way I've seen it somewhere.

Peter

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Westbury DR line? 28/06/2013 at 13:15 #46121
maxand
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Thanks again Peter. Finally struck the jackpot! :woohoo:

What is needed are Network Rail's Operational Rules, combining Engineering Access Statement and Timetable Planning Rules in a 95 Mb download, available at the bottom of this page, which I will add to the Links page on our Wiki. (The Links page contains other useful NR links, but not this one. Maybe some other Wiki page contains a link to it, but Googling didn't find it.)

This contains the best compilation of abbreviations I've seen that prevent those not in the know from feeling at ease in SimSig. I wish I'd known about this earlier. Sure, it's already been posted (thanks caedave), way back in 2009, slyly titled Bedtime reading for WTT writers. It contains Rules Of The Route (ROTR), Rules Of The Plan (ROTP), and rules for just about anything else.

And good bedtime reading it is (like most NR literature), with an e-book reader capable of displaying PDF files. No other nightcap required.

On the subject of NR timetables, their tube map style WTT Maps are great for supplementing the sim maps. Another gem worth bookmarking.

Last edited: 28/06/2013 at 13:18 by maxand
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Westbury DR line? 28/06/2013 at 13:17 #46122
TimTamToe
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" said:
From memory I think there is another document "Rules of the Plan"? (which is linked from our WIKI) which sets out the available codes for each location- or maybe its the Sectional Appendix (also linked) - either way I've seen it somewhere.

Peter
"Rules of The Route" gives all the headways and allowances for all the different lines at junctions and stations as well as turnarounds times for specific stock if that's what you were thinking of Peter

Gareth

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Westbury DR line? 28/06/2013 at 13:20 #46123
Late Turn
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Each WTT section also has a document (this one, for example) explaining the various notes and references used in column headers and the columns themselves. Many will be common to all sections of the WTT, but some - line references, for example, are obviously specific to one section.
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Westbury DR line? 28/06/2013 at 13:24 #46124
Sacro
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Quote:
The Working Timetable (WTT) is the rail industry's version of the public national timetable.

It shows all movements on the rail network including freight trains, empty trains and those coming in and out of depots. It also includes our unique identification codes for each train, and intermediate times for journeys, including which stations a train is not scheduled to stop at.

Important: This document has been made available for rail industry professionals and should not be confused with the passenger timetable.
Actually it shows all timetabled (tautology much?) movements on the rail network, local shunts and short-notice manoeuvres (STP/VSTP) won't be in there.

I don't see the 'unique code' (Train UID) mentioned anywhere either, pretty sure they just use the train identity / reporting number (often mistermed as the headcode)

I'm not sure of the 'mgr' rows, but they appear to contain the pathing/engineering/performance allowance adjustments.

OpenTrainTimes does get the data in an electronic format, I'm unsure whether it is using the CIF, or the JSON varient, or something else, but it should be the same base data that generates the PDFs

The Rules of the Plan is what tells you which line codes are available for writing timetables, though they should also be in the Sectional Appendix showing where they actually are.

I'm not sure why you're seeing no timing codes on OpenTrainTimes, that sounds like it could be a bug, do you have the URL you're accessing it via?

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Westbury DR line? 28/06/2013 at 13:46 #46125
DriverCurran
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Ben

I can am 96% certain that mgr in the wtt stands for margin (even if the g and the r are the wrong way round) and embraces all the various allowances as detailed in the notes to the timetable.

Paul

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Westbury DR line? 28/06/2013 at 14:44 #46126
Jan
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While we're at it, might I just mention this page I came across a while ago, which seems to be the training material for a course for aspiring train planners.
Two million people attempt to use Birmingham's magnificent rail network every year, with just over a million of them managing to get further than Smethwick.
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