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| Timetable Rules unfair to players 06/07/2013 at 05:46 #46590 | |
maxand
1637 posts |
Thanks again everyone for your knowledgeable posts. On one side we have professional signallers who understand how the system works and take all this in their stride. On the other there are guys like me, doing their best to enjoy a sim without having to battle undocumented, or poorly documented, frustrations. Danny252 wrote Quote: Cor, being told about train delays? That's a luxury!On looking down your list, these appear to be incidents rather than TT rules. You seem to be saying that in real life, signallers are not usually informed about such delays, which I understand, but this never happens in SimSig, where we are informed of the length of every delay and its cause - a broken window, wrong food trolley, etc. AFAIK there is no way to partially or completely disable delay reporting without disabling the delays themselves (playing at Perfect level). However, these are not part of TT rules, nor inbuilt dwell times. As an aside, perhaps the developers should introduce this feature for extra fun, along with the ability to telephone stations, not just shunting yards, to enquire how long a train might be delayed. Maybe a sliding scale of the percentage of delays the poor signaller is to be informed about, ranging from 100% (easy) to 0% (difficult). Additionally, maybe developers should use Danny's list to augment the existing list of delays. The possibilities are endless! Thanks guyh, I'm glad someone else feels the Show Timetable window should indicate the existence of a TT rule. The more detail, the better (another plug for a smaller font in the Show Timetable window here). Just so that signallers know ahead of time that one is likely to be applied. A separate line would fit in better than an extra column. (Sure it's helpful to see the most important TT rules mentioned in the manual, but not nearly as accessible.) Failing this, the difference between the men and the boys comes down knowing your area backwards before you sit down to play - a Catch-22 situation, particularly for those new to SimSig and easily likely to to put one off it permanently. Surely, learning SimSig from forum posts and tutorials must be more difficult than easing oneself into a control centre in real life, with the benefit of prior training and others there to offer instant local knowledge. Hmm. It hadn't quite occurred to me like that, but your comments certainly make food for thought. What can the average less experienced player take away from all this? 1) Don't assume that a train will depart when its TT says it will, so keep entrances and exits wide open - the newer the sim, the more room you will need, like two kangaroos making love, as we say down here. 2) If possible, print out and keep handy all the TT rules until developers get around to hinting at them in the Show TT window. 3) Write copious notes to yourself on how you solved the other problems arising as you play the sim, in case months elapse before you touch it again. Problems such as where no route exists even though you expected there to be one. 4) Then re-read the forum and manual to see if you recognize any of the bugs and whether there's a better solution than your own. 5) If a platform offers a TRTS service, rely on that, don't pull off early (see also How early should a route be set?). 6) Expect your first encounter with a new sim to be a totally frustrating experience, so Pause and Save frequently before things get out of hand. Last edited: 06/07/2013 at 05:53 by maxand Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Signalhunter |
| Timetable Rules unfair to players 06/07/2013 at 06:29 #46591 | |
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Forest Pines
525 posts |
The last time I was in a signalbox someone did phone me up to tell me about a delay. However, they did it because Danny252 had told them to, so for purposes of this thread you could argue it doesn't count! Log in to reply |
| Timetable Rules unfair to players 06/07/2013 at 06:51 #46592 | |
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Late Turn
696 posts |
At least, in reality, there's usually some way of contacting the station to find out what's going on and arrange to replace the platform starter if necessary - whereas we're stuck with no legitimate means of replacing the signal in Simsig!
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| Timetable Rules unfair to players 06/07/2013 at 08:42 #46597 | |
moonraker
353 posts |
Late Turn - I beg to differ on your last point. There is a legitimate way to replace a signal if the driver of a delayed train phones you to say he will be delayed you get the choice whether to replace the signal to danger or not
Last edited: 06/07/2013 at 08:43 by moonraker Log in to reply |
| Timetable Rules unfair to players 06/07/2013 at 08:55 #46599 | |
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Late Turn
696 posts |
Not if he's delayed by observing a timetable rule, or even if you've pulled off early in error.
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| Timetable Rules unfair to players 06/07/2013 at 09:03 #46600 | |
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moonraker
353 posts |
Indeed good point but if you click on a train's TT you can usually see if it will have a long dwell time at a particular station. As mentioned previously not too many years ago when we we still had Parcels/Newspaper/Mail/TPO trains running the dwell times could be quite significant for loading/unloading and even splitting portions or attaching more vehicles to a train. Example - The Padd - Bristol TM Papers had the Gloucester on the back and usually consisted of 14-16 vehicles. On arrival at Swindon in the old platform 4 the train was split with the Bristol section going first. Then a fresh loco from the stabling point coupled to the Gloucester portion. But because it was on platform 4 it had to be propelled out to the East Gantry opposite Cockleberry Yard where it could then be signalled through the island platform to reach the Gloucester line. The whole process usually taking 20 - 25 mins from the time the train arrived at Swindon with all the paper bundles for Swindon being unloaded during that time. Damned hard work I can tell you and took a lot of team work to get things done on time Last edited: 06/07/2013 at 09:12 by moonraker Log in to reply |
| Timetable Rules unfair to players 06/07/2013 at 09:13 #46601 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
" said:Danny252 wroteI guess a few that count as rules might be: *Crew has not completed brake check *Engine requires water, coal or fuel before departing *Any of the above relating to passengers, meaning that the train must have several minutes of station time (e.g. "Train must not depart Highley until 4 minutes after it arrives", due to overcrowding on the platform) *Crew require tea and/or food before departure The latter one is very rarely communicated to anyone - you just see the crew making a mad dash for the train when they realise the signal has been cleared for them to depart... Log in to reply |
| Timetable Rules unfair to players 06/07/2013 at 09:16 #46602 | |
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Late Turn
696 posts |
That's fair enough - it's the occasions where a timetable rule is used to enforce a connection that might catch you out! My point, which I think I made in the recent thread on telephone calls - is that it'd be helpful of having some way of contacting the driver so that you can put the signal back, if you weren't aware of the rule. A brief entry in the timetable window - either on a new line or in a 'notes' column, perhaps, would be helpful (in lieu of any discussion with the station staff!), as Max suggests.
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| Timetable Rules unfair to players 06/07/2013 at 10:14 #46605 | |
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TimTamToe
656 posts |
" said:Indeed good point but if you click on a train's TT you can usually see if it will have a long dwell time at a particular station.Max's point is not about long dwell times that show in the timetable by looking at arr / dep times...It's enforced longer dwell due to timetabling rules which aren't shown in a train's TT only by typing the headcode into the timetable rules section. I think I mentioned in the info screen for my Brighton 2012 TT (pre loader version) that I had minimum turnarounds according to ROTR (Rules of The Route) and added timetable rules to implement this, for added realism. So that a late arriving train at Brighton or wherever, wouldn't necessarily leave on time as its new service. Of course it wasn't such an issue in the Brighton sim as most of the locations had TRTS. I think partly once you know an area you automatically know which trains may have rules associated etc but I think an option of a column in the timetable or an asterisk in the train description could help distinguish those that have rules associated to them at a glance would prove useful too " said: it's the occasions where a timetable rule is used to enforce a connection that might catch you out! My point, which I think I made in the recent thread on telephone calls - is that it'd be helpful of having some way of contacting the driver so that you can put the signal back, if you weren't aware of the rule. A brief entry in the timetable window - either on a new line or in a 'notes' column, perhaps, would be helpful (in lieu of any discussion with the station staff!), as Max suggests.Agreed Gareth Last edited: 06/07/2013 at 10:15 by TimTamToe Log in to reply |
| Timetable Rules unfair to players 06/07/2013 at 10:51 #46606 | |
Steamer
3924 posts 
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" said:Interesting. I've had my share of "Oh ^&^%&!" moments after pulling off, but it's never taken the enjoyment away. I'll be annoyed with myself for a few minutes, but then I'll just chalk it up to experience and make a mental note to look out for something similar in the future. Quote: Thanks guyh, I'm glad someone else feels the Show Timetable window should indicate the existence of a TT rule. The more detail, the better (another plug for a smaller font in the Show Timetable window here). Just so that signallers know ahead of time that one is likely to be applied. A separate line would fit in better than an extra column.Reducing the size of the font would make the window harder to read at a glance, especially for users who have difficulty seeing smaller writing- I think the current size is as small as it can go without causing difficulties/eye strain. Personally, I think the best way to indicate the rule would be to have an 'R' at some point in the location line, alerting the user to the fact that a Rule applies and that they need to look it up. Quote: Failing this, the difference between the men and the boys comes down knowing your area backwards before you sit down to play - a Catch-22 situation, particularly for those new to SimSig and easily likely to to put one off it permanently. Surely, learning SimSig from forum posts and tutorials must be more difficult than easing oneself into a control centre in real life, with the benefit of prior training and others there to offer instant local knowledge. Hmm. It hadn't quite occurred to me like that, but your comments certainly make food for thought.However, the advantage in SimSig is that it doesn't matter if you mess up. I'm not a signaller (or even a railway employee), but I can still have a go and learn it as I go along. For example, when Marylebone was released, I had a quick look through the manual, then dived in and learnt as I went, checking the manual where necessary, as opposed to trying to learn everything in theory before hand, then playing the simulation. For example, having fallen into the trap, you've decided to wait for TRTS in future. If you get stuck, the Wiki is there if you need it, as is the Fourm. Quote:
Again, instead of writing out copious notes and then trying to re-absorb them all, just have a go. If you get the 'No route between selected signals' message, there's no problem, and you'll remember it after a while. I think that's a lot quicker and easier than looking up every route you intend to set before you set it. There's also the option to start a game with no timetable and have a play around. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Last edited: 06/07/2013 at 10:55 by Steamer Log in to reply The following users said thank you: TimTamToe, guyh, maxand |
| Timetable Rules unfair to players 06/07/2013 at 11:35 #46608 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Steamer wrote Quote: Reducing the size of the font would make the window harder to read at a glance, especially for users who have difficulty seeing smaller writing- I think the current size is as small as it can go without causing difficulties/eye strain.In that case such users would barely be able to read the Train List, Timetable List, Incident Report, etc.! May I suggest that F3 Options include a choice of at least 2 basic fonts to be applied for all such windows, using the font in the Show Timetable window as the large font, and the font in, say, Timetable List as the small font. Yes, I know, the font in the Show Timetable window is a monospaced Courier font, probably chosen to force vertical alignment, but smaller font sizes in Courier do exist. Apologies for veering off-topic here. I appreciate your other advice in this post. Last edited: 06/07/2013 at 11:36 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Timetable Rules unfair to players 06/07/2013 at 12:38 #46611 | |
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Ron_J
329 posts |
" said:I wouldn't say they are 'unfair' I would say they add to the realism, for example... The best example of that sort of thing I ever had in real life was at Dundee with all four platforms full up because of disruption further north. I got the TRTS and gave the road for a train to leave for Edinburgh, with a train from Glasgow waiting outside the station for the road into the platform as soon as the Edinburgh train departed. After five minutes the Edinburgh still hadn't left so I phoned the platform supervisor who said something along the lines of "Oh yes, I meant to tell you. The driver for that one is coming from Perth on the Glasgow, so can you get that one in first?". When I asked why he'd given me TRTS he said - and I'll never forget this - "Aye it's ready to leave right now, it just doesn't have a driver yet". That one was fun to get out of! Log in to reply The following users said thank you: maxand, Josie |
| Timetable Rules unfair to players 06/07/2013 at 13:30 #46622 | |
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AndyG
1835 posts |
" said:"Aye it's ready to leave right now, it just doesn't have a driver yet".Classic! 
I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Log in to reply |
| Timetable Rules unfair to players 11/11/2013 at 12:20 #51337 | |
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Essexgirl
42 posts |
" said:Keith - you'll be pleased to know we're even worse at Marylebone now! A recent analysis showed we do approx 30 swaps per day, (usually with less than 10 mins notice I reckon).You want to be thankful you dont work Leeds East Workstation at York IECC. There are continual set swops and platform alterations all day with Northern being the worst TOC, but I must say that the station co-ordinators are usually very good and give the information to us signallers in plenty of time. Its a smahe that IECC's can not be simulated as I'm sure everyone would love to have a go at Leeds and 'prove themselves' Last edited: 11/11/2013 at 12:22 by Essexgirl Reason: didnt want all original quote Log in to reply |
| Timetable Rules unfair to players 11/11/2013 at 12:45 #51340 | |
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woodruff
204 posts |
Would it not be possible for the timetable to have a separate sheet with other info ? I have seen other timetables where the timetable author has given info such as what loco goes on which train, [ one of the timetable for Lime Street ]. Having a separate word document with the info as to what train has a rule applied to it , might be as easy as" train 1F01 has a rule attached see timetable", will be possibly more realistic as several comments from people who actually do the job seem to have wrote.
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